Commercial Profile After-Market Value

Quote from whippinpost91850

I like the earlier analogy. If you put $1600 in new wheels on your car, it does not make its value $1600 higher

This, to a degree. With the internet bringing everything to your backyard, there is a vast quantity of buyers that never were. Someone will look at that car and say, I love those rims and would have put them on it anyway justifying some the $1600 added to the price. They may not recover all of the $1600 but it will add value to the sale for that buyer. Extras to me always entice a better deal, why not buy the studio monitors you wanted from a seller that is getting rid of his monitors with stands and pads for close to the same price you'd pay for the monitors alone. No brainer, really

I don't see a whole lot of difference between a profile and a song in terms of intellectual property.

Ok, I'll bite again...
I don't see a prob with people selling commercial profiles second hand.
You buy a profile pack - it's crap for your style - you sell it again at a lower price as it is useless to you - where's the problem?

It's the same with a DVD - you buy a DVD of a movie - you see it, you don't like it, you sell the DVD again on Ebay.

In both cases - you own the right to watch a movie or play a profile - and you sell that right.

... but as far as the vendor's concerned, you still have that right.

I've seen no mechanism thus far whereby one can choose to forfeit said right through the vendor sites.

Food for thought, methinks.

Quote from schneidas

Ok, I'll bite again...
I don't see a prob with people selling commercial profiles second hand.
You buy a profile pack - it's crap for your style - you sell it again at a lower price as it is useless to you - where's the problem?

It's the same with a DVD - you buy a DVD of a movie - you see it, you don't like it, you sell the DVD again on Ebay.

In both cases - you own the right to watch a movie or play a profile - and you sell that right.

Totally agree with this free market principle. @DonPetersen in no way was I implying that Kemper sold profiles.

Quote from Eltzejupp

Just to make it clear. The ebay ones are not mine. It's just to show everyone what really happens.

Cheers
Frank

Hey Frank! I think that that was clear from the start. "Fell off the back of a lorry" means that "someone" got "something" from "somewhere"... @DonPetersen,the Kemper amplifier was the carrier of the pun, but by no means involved in the transaction, whatever it may have been...

Quote from schneidas

Ok, I'll bite again...
I don't see a prob with people selling commercial profiles second hand.
You buy a profile pack - it's crap for your style - you sell it again at a lower price as it is useless to you - where's the problem?

It's the same with a DVD - you buy a DVD of a movie - you see it, you don't like it, you sell the DVD again on Ebay.

In both cases - you own the right to watch a movie or play a profile - and you sell that right.

You need to think in terms of a digital movie or song. You only own the right to watch or listen to the movie/song and don't own anything that is transferable to anyone else. Now if you could somehow de-register your name and register this other person as the owner, then it would be legal. The digital world creates a blurred line with ownership.
The issue is that you still have access to the product even after you "sell" it to someone else. What's stopping you from downloading it again? Also, what happens to the person you sell it too, when his file becomes corrupted and he needs to get it again? Does he go back to you for a new copy? Or is he just out of luck now?

Quote from drog

You need to think in terms of a digital movie or song. You only own the right to watch or listen to the movie/song and don't own anything that is transferable to anyone else. Now if you could somehow de-register your name and register this other person as the owner, then it would be legal. The digital world creates a blurred line with ownership.
The issue is that you still have access to the product even after you "sell" it to someone else. What's stopping you from downloading it again? Also, what happens to the person you sell it too, when his file becomes corrupted and he needs to get it again? Does he go back to you for a new copy? Or is he just out of luck now?

very true. and it goes further: IF the licensor (the maker of the Rig) made you sign an software license agreement (EULA) and you sell on the Profiler you've installed the rigs on later, the situation becomes much more complex. the buyer of the second hand Profiler has the Rigs now but he didn't agree on the individual EULA(s). and the seller probably doesn't have the automatic permission to extend to license agreement to a third party. or to put it in simpler terms: it is a romantic thought that you can sell on digital goods easily.

Quote from G String

very true. and it goes further: IF the licensor (the maker of the Rig) made you sign an software license agreement (EULA) and you sell on the Profiler you've installed the rigs on later, the situation becomes much more complex. the buyer of the second hand Profiler has the Rigs now but he didn't agree on the individual EULA(s). and the seller probably doesn't have the automatic permission to extend to license agreement to a third party. or to put it in simpler terms: it is a romantic thought that you can sell on digital goods easily.

Might it not be a good idea to warn generally about this type of problem? How many licensors are currently operating with EULA? The other thing, a third party is not liable for this type of "misinterpretation of a legally bound monetary transaction", so if the sale is completed, who's to know and how? BTW, we are confining ourselves to Kemper specific profiles here, are we not?

More constructively, a general warning issued by Kemper against this type of transaction might encourage a more good mannered and fairer approach by all involved in the buying and selling of IP of this type.

Quote from Freisegler

Might it not be a good idea to warn generally about this type of problem? How many licensors are currently operating with EULA? The other thing, a third party is not liable for this type of "misinterpretation of a legally bound monetary transaction", so if the sale is completed, who's to know and how? BTW, we are confining ourselves to Kemper specific profiles here, are we not?

it might be a good idea but this is not the business of Kemper and we will not interfere. the profiles in Rig Exchange don't have this issue.

How about this? . . .IF someone is selling KPA with a bunch of commercial profiles in it what good would keeping those Profiles be to the seller since they are KPA specific? They might as well advertise these as a "bonus" of some kind but what they really are is just something the seller can't use in the future. After all, they won't translate over to an Ax Fx or Helix.

just a thought . . . .

I've seen these kinds of "combo deals" before and I don't think anything is wrong with it.

Before I get lynched, let me point out a few things:
1) I don't agree with the idea of someone buying profiles and then selling them for a profit or to reduce a loss. The terms of the seller always state this explicitly.

2) It would be extremely difficult for a seller to enforce those terms, rather I see them as an expectation of good faith from the buyer. That's not to say the seller could not pursue legal remedy, but I think the value he would be entitled to from such a case would be the value of the profiles in question. This has been seen in the case of movie piracy in countries like Australia and Singapore.

3) For this kind of transaction to be above board, it would hinge on the seller of the Profiler divesting all further access to the profiles, that means no further downloads, no more sales of those profiles.

4) Once a seller gets rid of his Kemper, he has no further use for those profiles. So I see it as a good sign that no value has been ascribed to the commercial profiles in this kind of situation. It is very much a "freebie". He is not selling the profiles, rather he is not deleting them before passing on the Kemper.

Just my 2 cents.

I use Rigs from RE but bought also a lot of commercial Rigs.
Some seller stated in their commercial condition that It is sold only for use. Some not.
In the first case for me its rather clear, that it is not allowed to give away the Profiles with the Kemper. How to control is another question.
In second case for me it seems more an ethic than a juristic question yet. Maybe this topic becomes clearer for me following this discussion.

I would not pay extra for Rigs in a used kemper because for me it seems illegal.
I would prefer that the seller remove the commercial profiles before delivery.
If he don't I am not quite sure that I would do it - I am also just a human. But I would not have a good feeling.

For me selling Profiles at ebay without permission of the maker is definitely a crime!

When we now talk more about a license transfer instead of classical selling, just out of curiosity, has ANYBODY here ever NOT SUCCEEDED in selling a software and have the license transferred to the new owner?
From the top of my head, I have sold different versions of Cubase, Toontrack Superior 1, Addictive Drums with no problems with license transfer to the new owner.
Although there is no obligation for software vendors to do it, ist seems quite common practice.
This is only from my personal experience tho' and I may be wrong.

Quote from drog

You need to think in terms of a digital movie or song. You only own the right to watch or listen to the movie/song and don't own anything that is transferable to anyone else. Now if you could somehow de-register your name and register this other person as the owner, then it would be legal. The digital world creates a blurred line with ownership.
The issue is that you still have access to the product even after you "sell" it to someone else. What's stopping you from downloading it again? Also, what happens to the person you sell it too, when his file becomes corrupted and he needs to get it again? Does he go back to you for a new copy? Or is he just out of luck now?

Good question... but you sell your CD's you don't want to own anymore and it's legit, right? What's stopping you from having converted them to flac or mp3 before selling it?

Also: why should one buy stuff (licence) for their profiler and not sell them along with the profiler but be stuck with that expense?

... And the most interesting question is: Has anybody ever contacted a vendor and asked about a license transfer with an intended sale yet?
Perhaps a few vendors can chime in?
(In case they get out of the commercial sub forum once in a while... )

Quote from Ingolf

Although there is no obligation for software vendors to do it, ist seems quite common practice.

Well this could be a fair approach, but needs maybe an expensive infrastructure for managing. And at the moment I do not see any chance to control it.
Cubase has a Stick you have to activated. Windows don't send updates for not licensed Software and so on.
To be realistic I do not think that the profile market could carry that.
It will stay more or less an ethical question which everybody will solve in his own way.

In this Forum it is a generally accepted forum rule not to resell commercial Profiles.
Would like to hear the opinion of some of our commercial Profile Vendors.

If a person bought my profiles and sold his kemper w/ those profiles I don't mind as its just a single instance.

In principle if I buy something, I should have the right to sell it in a 1-1 transaction ( which is what is being talked about here). I am assuming that the commercial profiles are being purchased, not licenced for use.

You can sell a cd but not distribute it, so I think that is the difference.

As for their value, its only what people are prepared to pay. I bought a second hand Kemper with £000's of commercial profiles on - but I'm not using any of them so they were not worth £000's. It also had "home-made" profiles on and he didn't charge me for these either although arguably that had his "IP" .

I have bought my own commercial profiles after choosing ones I wanted and I don't intend taking them off if I ever sell it when the Kemper Mk2 comes out