Commercial Profile After-Market Value

    Quote from Ingolf

    Well I wouldn't call this scenario silly.
    A lot of buyers have already stated that more than once they bought profile packs in good faith only to realize when actually playing them that they don't work with their gear.
    And this is is a real disadvantage IMO, that with some vendors you can't try profiles before you buy them. You have to rely on YT vids and that's it.


    I understand what you mean now, I guess it was just me reading it wrong. What you're saying is totally fair and I can see the frustration of a person who bought something but didn't work with their setup. I've been in this situation with products before and thus I sympathize. Hopefully I've not come across as an asshole :/

    Quote from MentaL


    I understand what you mean now, I guess it was just me reading it wrong. What you're saying is totally fair and I can see the frustration of a person who bought something but didn't work with their setup. I've been in this situation with products before and thus I sympathize. Hopefully I've not come across as an asshole :/


    Thanks for your answer, and no, you're a true gentleman, Sir. ;)

    Quote from MentaL

    Maybe I'm not understanding or your confusing yourself. If Person B buys the work of Person A and sells to Person C (specifically selling the profiles as created by Person A) then that shouldn't be allowed.


    Hi all,
    I have a question about copyrights.
    Is it not true that a commercial seller has to pay for a copyright of his products?
    Dont know it exactly, but i think when there is no listed copyright nobody have to take care to copy it and sell it, using it and so on.
    For me its a little bit confusing. What is a profile of an amp? A digital fake of an amp? Old question about copyrights again. Why could people not offer it as a profile from a f.e. Bogner amp. Is it only that its not allowed to use the brand? For me its only a description of a product.
    I think its a big grey zone and i havent read a clear statemt the last years what is realy allowed and what not.
    Just read statements about this ethical thing.
    Would be fine to know if its allowed or not to resell commercial rigs in case of the law.
    Only this will clear it up. Any experience with that? Never heard about an example .



    Cheers
    Frank


    Well I was going to leave but I'll try and answer . I'm self employed and work from home and thus my primary source of work is via the internet (profiling is just for fun). I've had a lot of experience with what your referencing but to me it it seems that the kemper could be defined as an Emulator. Its not a direct 1:1 copy since the kemper is using a base source that its trying to imitate from. Also, there is a difference between copyright and trademark. I own a trademark and thus using a someone name would be trademark infringement whilst imagery and stuff would be copyright .With all that being said emulators are legal but are also a grey area. One judge could rule one verdict whilst another judge the opposite. A profile is a digital product and thus could be covered via EULA (i think).. hope this helps a bit.

    Quote from Ingolf

    Well I wouldn't call this scenario silly.
    A lot of buyers have already stated that more than once they bought profile packs in good faith only to realize when actually playing them that they don't work with their gear.
    And this is is a real disadvantage IMO, that with some vendors you can't try profiles before you buy them. You have to rely on YT vids and that's it.


    In my opinion, this is a risk the buyer assumes when purchasing profiles. I can understand why most vendors would be averse to buyers selling (and thusly transferring ownership of) commercial profiles, though. There's simply no way to ensure that the original buyer deleted their copy. In the case of some software license transfers, serial numbers may be registered with the vendor to facilitate the transfer. For example, to transfer the license of an Adobe product, both the original buyer and recipient must fill out a Transfer of License form and register the serial number. Either way, if some companies are perfectly fine with software licenses being transferred using the honor system that's their choice, but I don't blame commercial profile vendors for choosing otherwise.

    I think copyrigths are free, and basically as soon as you say something is copyrighted - it is (provided it is your own original work of course). I'm not sure WHAT can be copyrighted. I may be totally wrong - any IP experts please correct me!


    Trademarks are a different matter and applies to different things (names, brands, possibly logos etc.). As I understand it, trademarking basically prevents freeloading on the "good name" of the original.

    A sound can't be copyrighted. The Profiler reproduces a sound, exactly like (even tho through a different methodology) any other modeller by which it's claimed they reproduced the exact original circuit at component level.


    Been told hundreds of times, but if a sound was a property then we should pay a fee every time we use any amp in public, or in a record.


    I'd also keep the discussion of what's legal and what's not (and what intellectual property is, and how its definition applies to profiling) independent from how you can be sure that people do not break a law against your economic interest. Of course, with software you can never 100% be sure your creation is safe.

    Quote from MentaL

    I understand what you mean now, I guess it was just me reading it wrong. What you're saying is totally fair and I can see the frustration of a person who bought something but didn't work with their setup. I've been in this situation with products before and thus I sympathize. Hopefully I've not come across as an asshole :/

    No you don´t come across like that at all. A real nice chap, with a load of profiles!!!! ;)
    Take good care of your talent my friend.

    Quote from viabcroce

    A sound can't be copyrighted.


    I agree with this.
    A software which is able to create a certain sound (no matter at which platform) is for me a product, which could be protected under the laws for copyright.
    But I do not know how this could be done in the Praxis.
    Actually, you can only appeal for ethical conduct.


    I think if any behavior depends on if something is definitely prohibited by law and thinks everything else is allowed, our living together would be very difficult.
    Laws can only define a lower limit of conduct.
    I know I pointed out an idealistic point of view.
    The praxis is always grey and everybody have to decide by himself what to do. The only regulation normally is the personal environment.


    @MentaL- thanks for joining the conversation.

    Not sure which direction the thread exactly took, but I'm gonna give my 2c haha


    Personally I aim for around 60% of the new price whenever I buy or sell. Depending on how good the condition is etc...
    Everything you did to the Instrument/Gear can be considered decreasing the value, not increasing it in my mind.
    Because why should I have to pay for additions you decided to get, who's to say I was ok with those choices?
    For example pickups: If you still have the original ones swap them out with the add on, but don't expect me to pay more for pickups I don't want.


    And it's the same thing with profiles on the Kemper. It's a nice bonus, but you can't expect people to pay for something they didn't intend on buying themselves.
    You'd have to be lucky to find someone who exactly wants what you did to the thing you sell, or your collection of profiles fits the taste of the buyer.
    Which wouldn't be a good scenario, cause most non-Kemper folks wouldn't know what kind of profiles they want I guess.
    And if people already had a Kemper but sold it, then I bit they kept the profiles in case they get another Kemper at some spot.


    Either way, the profiles/upgrades are non essential for a 2nd hand buyer in my mind. Nice bonus, but don't expect to get payed extra for it.
    Example: I wouldn't pay extra for a guitar that had it's pickups switched for EMGs. Why? Cause I still have a couple laying around at home.


    As far as the mentality goes for sellers: I can't speak for all of us vendors, but I think most guys just don't want you to zip up all your profiles and sell them yourself.
    If you leave them on your Kemper then I also don't care too much. That's not doing any real damage in my mind, compared to pirating/sharing groups at least.

    Well. shit, i have that many commercial profiles, that it even cost MORE than my Kemper..remote, PLUS my Gemini 2 FRFR!!
    Wanna see a screen shot of my Rig manager? :)
    I am not joking, i am talking EVERY single one just about and more rising.


    That would be funny if i was ever to do that (i wont as i think the vendors deserve myy support)
    As how could i sell them, they are worth more then the Kemper LOL.


    Yeah buy my kemper, 1200 bucks...
    BTW i have over 3+ Grand worth of commercial profiles for sale (LOL)
    For me i just choose to support the Vendors. ..and Mago kicks ass (Still cant get over how killer that Ubershell is bra)


    But there is enough in the kemper and rig exchange to satisfy the most fussy of us all (except me as i am tone deaf lol)
    Bah, lastly my useless 2 cents, if i ever HAD to do that for what ever reason, i would give a FAIR return to the vendors (but thats just me)


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Like 2

    Thanks for the kind words brother, its mainly because i have found them very giving and nice like you guys
    so i guess its just inspires me to do that , that one good thing about the KEMPER ...is the community here
    Fractal axe FX does not have Nicky/ALL either tee hee, thats one thing they are missing out on too! :D



    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Like 1