Remote-controlling a performance without a Remote - Standalone sequencer or computer?

  • I'm really getting into the idea of performing my music, band be damned. That's not to say I'm averse to the idea of a band, it's just that there aren't a lot of people interested in dead genres these days, particularly in countries with a population < 7 million.


    One thing I will really have to focus on when performing by myself is ensuring that my performances are seamless, with as little manual intervention as possible. For example, I would like to be able to trigger the looper automatically when I come to certain bars in my song and then for the looper to turn itself off after a set number of bars. Or even things as simply as having to stomp on a button to change to another performance.


    I'd also like to control multiple devices, such as my Kemper, a drum machine, perhaps even a vocal processor. I could also get my head around the idea of playing sound effects or ambient sounds while I play.


    For this purpose, I am divided over whether to consider a standalone sequencer or a computer. I think a computer would give me the most flexibility and would be the easiest way to change things if required without a lot of deep menu diving.


    But I am a bit leery of problems that computers can pose while on stage in terms of reliability. For this reason, I am looking at the option of a standalone sequencer to achieve my ends. But those things weigh a ton, and as mentioned, they are not very flexible or easy to tweak in an instant. They also cost quite a bit, though I don't have a laptop, so I think the computer route would cost me much more.


    What do you guys think? I know quite a few Kemperians sequence things when they perform. Anyone have any experience with standalone sequencers? Which ones are you using?

  • If I ever wanted to perform with anything pre- sequenced I'd definitely use the combonation of a MacBook Pro plus Ableton Live (which I both use myself, the only thing preventing me to so this is my band that still works better). ;)


    Yes, I was pretty sure more guys would come out in favour of the computer method, it seems that is how most performers do it these days.


    But why Ableton? I would definitely go for a Mac if I was considering a laptop, but it seems to me I can get a standalone sequencer for cheaper.


    Also, as pointed out, bands are just impossible to find here for the kind of music I'm trying to play. I play in two other bands, as a drummer and a bassist. :D

  • My band uses a Cymatic Live Player 16. It plays up to 16 mono tracks of audio (wav) and a midi file simultaneously. It's also super small and light!


    We use the midi file for CCs and PCs to control my Kemper and the other guitarist's GT-100, but note information (for, say, an external drum sampler) should work too. The midi file can of course contain many different tracks for different channels. Or you could export the drum tracks and other instruments to wavs beforehand and just play them like that.


    You can have as many songs as you want (each having 16 wav tracks and a midi file) on a usb stick and order them in playlists.


    The main reason we switched from a laptop running Ableton Live (plus firewire interface) was the compactness, simplicity and reliability of an integrated, single-purpose solution. It was a good decision.


    The only drawback for us is that, at the moment, the device doesn't send out midi clock info. That means that you will have to pre-program your songs' tempos in the appropriate Performances if you want to sync delays etc. This may change in a future firmware update, though. Also, you can't really edit the songs directly on the device -- for that, you'll have to take the usb stick back to your pc/laptop.


    Some more info here:
    Kemper midi automation thread


  • This is very helpful, thank you. I was looking into the Squarp Pyramid sequencer, which wasn't too expensive and apparently has the ability to load midi files, but it doesn't have audio track capability.


    Can this unit output CC and PC messages as well? What is the maximum number of simultaneous messages that can be sent?


    I'm currently exploring the possibility of getting an Akai MPC4000 that has popped up on the used market here. The only concern is that it is a very bulky device. But the one thing it does have is a midi port, which the Cymatic doesn't.Not that that is a big deal, I could always get a footswitch to control it. But I like the idea of being able to control everything from my pedal switching system. It's too bulky though, I will definitely look into this system, thank you so much, it doesn't cost an arm and a leg either.


    I may also be looking at a bass module of some kind in the future (so much GAS these days, it is incredible, I thought I was done with the Kemper... If only they would give us an option to route the parallel path to a separate output haha). That might not be possible with the Cymatic, so I'll have a good hard think about it. Thank you again!


    One more question, can it output midi on all 16 available midi channels simultaneously? I don't have 16 devices, lol, but I have been toying with the idea of integrating a synthesiser into my music. Maybe a Virus @ckemper!


    @nightlight
    what kind of music is it?


    Can there be any other dying genre than metal, @paults, lol! I know it seems ridiculous to try and play music without a band, but I am at a disadvantage here, i.e. 1) dying genre that does not appeal to people seeking instant fame.


    l I have been trying for years to play live, but between changing cities, countries and countless young dudes who can't gel with a 30+ year old, I am getting a little tired of it all. I really want to play live and have my music heard. To top it off, I know the record companies won't touch me with a ten-foot pole if I can't put on a live show. This is my attempt to stay contemporary, I have a lot of crazy ideas that hinge on this sequencing device.


    Great thing about Singapore is there is at least an underground metal movement, unlike in India where it was a mainstream movement controlled by an elite few, i.e. few bands get to perform live. I have a good friend who has a few contacts, so I'm banking on that to get me my first gig here. So much groundwork to do in advance though! :)

  • I'm afraid I haven't tested the Cymatic to the limit when it comes to midi, but we send out PC and CC messages on two channels simultaneously (one for my Kemper, the other for the GT-100, connected via my Kemper's midi thru port). More channels is definitely possible, and I don't see a reason why it wouldn't go up to midi's default 16. Midi is an old and well established standard; apart from the missing midi clock output, I think the Cymatic can pretty much handle most of it. I've sent multiple CCs simultaneously to my Kemper and never had any problems.


    When you mention using synthesizers or bass modules, the question is how much live freedom you want to retain. In my personal experience, metal is a very difficult genre for improvisation. In general, everything moves so fast and tight you just want things to be in their right place exactly like you rehearsed -- at least the rhythm section! Any improvisational freedom is usually up to the lead guitarist and vocalist.


    My point is: why not use those synthesizers and other electronic instruments to record all the tracks of your songs at home, and then export them as wavs and just play those wavs as static backing tracks through the Cymatic? That would greatly limit the number of devices you have to bring to a gig, connect to each other and risk failing -- you'd just need your Kemper, the Cymatic and possibly a footswitch. Unless, of course, you want to be able to tweak song structures or bass lines or synth sounds on the fly -- in that case you would need a sequencer and/or synthesizer, probably even a keyboard, or a laptop with Ableton Live. But if you're not doing those things, and all those devices would just be executing pre-programmed midi instructions, you might as well use wavs.


    You can launch consecutive songs in a Cymatic playlist using a simple footswitch (or just let them start automatically after a preset pause). If you program all your Kemper's Performance slot and effects changes using midi PCs and CCs, synchronized to the backing tracks, you don't even need any other pedals! :D


    But again, it depends on how much live freedom your music requires. If you like to shake things up and change song structures in the heat of the moment, you need a true sequencer or laptop.

  • If you have time and want to make some expiriences i would go for the cheapest solution ever.
    There are many Micro Computers on the market, for example a Raspberry PI for a few Dollars.
    (Very small dimensions and runs with USB power).
    This Little Computer is able to run Linux (which costs nothing at all). And for Linux there are
    existing DAW's for free.
    So that would be a good start to see what your Needs are.

  • Thanks for the advice. guys, but I am seriously wondering whether I should go through all this trouble when there's a good chance that the act won't be accepted.


    One-man bands in metal are usually confined to the studio, if they play live they have sessions musicians. Nobody plays this kind of music without a drummer or bassist.


    I was really pinning my hopes on being able to sequence live drums with this Perc device that is due to be released, but after watching a few videos, I'm convinced it hits so softly that it's only fit for EDM.


    I'll carry on playing with my other bands and try to figure out how to rope in members.

  • I want to say: go for it!! :)


    Ok, I realize it may not be that simple.


    A device like the "PERC" would add a unique visual presence on stage to compensate for the absent drummer, I guess. On the other hand: since it would only play pre-programmed drum tracks, it would -- again -- not be that different from a pre-recorded audio file. It would also severely complicate your stage setup with another element that can be badly mic'ed by the soundguy, break down, or generally revolt... All things considered, it feels a bit gimmicky, and it would probably sound a lot worse than a well produced Superior Drummer track.


    Maybe what's holding you back from simply using audio backing tracks is the idea that it feels a little too much like "simply pressing play"? You know, the feeling that once you start using pre-recorded stuff, you get into that murky "karaoke" territory. This is something we sometimes discuss in the band as well. We have synths and ambient sound effects running along on the Cymatic. Our general policy is not to rely on the backing track too much, and to do as much live as we can. We usually keep the main melodic lines in the instruments we're actually playing on stage; we also don't want those instruments (i.e., our guitars, bass and drums) to be in the backing track at the same time, as that would feel too much like cheating.


    But in your case, as a solo musician, my feeling is you shouldn't worry too much. It depends on how open-minded your local metal scene is, of course. But if you only pre-record rhythm guitar, bass and drums, and make sure you play (and sing?) all lead parts live, you can still have a strong enough "stage performance" element. And who knows, maybe you'll recruit session musicians after a couple of successful gigs. :)


  • Thanks for the encouragement, @Robrecht. You're bang on, I feel as though pre-recorded tracks would detract from the actual performance. I've seen a lot of synth acts go on stage with sequenced instruments and that suits me just fine, I would like to do something along those lines.


    The scene here is very close-minded unfortunately. I actually spoke to some guys who are quite well connected in the scene here in Singapore about my situation and what they told me is that I'd be subject to a lot of "that is not tr00 metal" from the guys in the audience. The music scene in Singapore is quite muted, I've heard a lot about bands/duos playing at clubs and being treated like furniture by the audience, they might as well be a pre-recorded track. In that sense, the metal scene is very much underground and the people tend to be more involved. I don't want to play on stage at all costs, especially when there's a possibility that the question could be raised why didn't the deserving "band" play instead of the solo artist.


    So it's not really a question of my willingness to play with pre-recorded music, if it gets me booed off stage, I'd really have to ask myself was it worth it to go through all that trouble just to try and play live?


    Doing my best to track down someone who's willing to play with me on a regular basis. Seeking drummers in particular and just got in touch with one.


    This Perc thing would have been perfect in that it is an "acoustic" (real/live) sound, as opposed to a "digital" (pre-recorded/fake) one, that kind of feedback is very important when you're on stage, I feel. The guys who make the Perc promised to make a few videos for me to get a better understanding of how the thing sounds acoustically, keeping my fingers crossed that it actually works much better than I thought it would.


    Lol, maybe I'll bring a mixer and mics and mike the thing myself, then send the feed into the PA system :D


    On a side note, I am just about to pull the trigger on a used Akai MPC1000 sequencer. It works like the Cymbatic, in that you can play midi and pre-recorded tracks, but it also has the capability of working with 32 (64?) midi tracks, more than enough for my purposes.

  • My band uses a Cymatic Live Player 16. It plays up to 16 mono tracks of audio (wav) and a midi file simultaneously. It's also super small and light!


    Oh man, this could be another sleepless night to study should I buy or not :D
    Price is now @ 339,- (Thomann)
    Background:
    With my friend (plays accordeon) I play as Duo with MIDI-Files, usind a Roland Mobile Studio Canvas SD-50 for Drums, Bass and probably Keyboard tracks.
    The sound is of course no longer appropriate. The sound could be improved extremely with this player.
    I could also use a Laptop, but I have the experience if people see a computer on the stage they think that everything is coming from the computer.


    It seems before I buy a Mel9 I look for this player :D

  • @nightlight, I can imagine those aren't the right circumstances for a non-standard act. Too bad, but I hope you'll find some great session players!


    @Sharry, sounds cool! I should add -- you probably understood this already -- that the device sends out midi through its midi port, but doesn't have its own sound bank to play midi music itself, so you need an external module for that. Or you could, again, pre-render everything as audio in wav form of course.

  • Sharry, sounds cool! I should add -- you probably understood this already -- that the device sends out midi through its midi port, but doesn't have its own sound bank to play midi music itself, so you need an external module for that. Or you could, again, pre-render everything as audio in wav form of course.


    Thanks for explanation. :)
    I have read the manual just before. It just send the MIDI-Information for an extern Midi device.



  • Other than the midi, the Cymatic can also stream 12 audio tracks simultaneously IIRC, so this might just be what you need for your performances. You don't need an external device if you render all the sounds in your computer and then just move them as a wav file into the appropriate project folder.



    Do it! Doooooo ittttttt! :D


    @nightlight, I can imagine those aren't the right circumstances for a non-standard act. Too bad, but I hope you'll find some great session players!


    Keeping my fingers crossed. In the meantime, I am in the process of adding some gear to my setup should I find the opportunity to play solo, since as you suggested, it might help me find like-minded musicians. It was my birthday on 0420, so I thought I would splurge a bit to keep myself from being unhappy about my difficult musical circumstances. :)

  • Just an update on something I thought would be a good input to this thread.


    With a computer, there's more the risk of overloading the machine than with external gear dedicated to a specific task.


    While things would be alright if you were just working with normal audio files and playing them back, trying to control a VST on stage seems a bit suicidal to me.


    I have a Mac and things are generally stable, but I have experienced a few crashes, as well as other phenomenon that I could not explain, such as a lack of sound output, even though the interface was recording midi and the VST was outputting sound through manual intervention.


    Another experiment had an interesting result: my computer experienced a CPU overload when i tried to sequence 9 keyboard tracks into Halion, one track into Superior Drummer, while recording the whole thing along with already recorded guitars and bass.


    This obviously is not an ideal way to do things: it would be better to render everything with Cubase track by track, rather than altogether. But it's just an example of something that could happen on stage.


    I agree with @Sharry, have a computer on stage and people will think that's where all the sound is coming from. I'm going to try to go the external instrument route and see whether I can get somewhere.