Difficulty making transition to frfr rig

  • let me rephrase this.... Never in my life have I played a gig without a monitor in front of me, or IEM's... Not once, not ever... I'm astounded by how many posts I see like this were people have never played with hearing their guitar thru a monitor...


    While it may have already been hinted at, your experiences are not everyone else's experiences. I've probably played more gigs WITHOUT monitoring (save for a shared wedge for the vocalists) than with them. Say what you want about FRFR (and I'm a fan, don't get me wrong), but a guitar sounds different going through a traditional guitar cab vs. a monitoring solution or FRFR. The point that's really different is the addition of the mic to the signal chain (and no one's smart enough to be able to replicate it without... yet). A cranked 5150 on a stage, by itself, through a half-stack of speakers, sounds very different than listening to that same sound through an SM57. Even if that sound is blasted through thousands and thousands of watts of Class D power into a top of the line matrix array of PA speakers... it doesn't sound like a set of Creambacks pushed hard. And, again, the primary difference is not the speaker, but the mic.


    The sound of a guitar through monitors, and even more so with IEMs where you're "closed off," just doesn't sound the same. I've gotten used to using modeling and pushing that sound direct to house since, well, as long as Line 6 has been around. But, honestly, one of the best sounds I ever got from Line 6 was pushing an X3 through a Vox AC-15, set as clean as humanly possible. It had the liveness of a real amp, with the benefit of being able to pull up a model of whatever I wanted, and it still sounded great. I've debated doing the same with my Kemper simply for some "liveness," but I haven't tried it.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

  • I use my Friedman ASM-12 FRFR monitor in front of me so I get to hear the same tone I'm sending to the front of house, I love that I get a "mixed/mic'ed" tone that sounds very clear with no spill so I can really hear what I'm playing especially on larger stages. I run my Marshall 1960 as normal behind me also, helps for getting a more natural feedback without hunching over my active wedge, offers more monitoring when moving around the stage and you get that familiar sound and feel of a "real" amp behind you, so on the larger gigs I pretty much use it as another monitor as I'm going to the front of house, my cab won't be mic'ed. At larger gigs though I have played without a traditional cab at all and just used the Friedman to hear myself with no issues.


    I can probably count just over single figures the number of times I've actually had a monitor mix where my guitar actually sounds good through the house wedges as the are always EQ'd to avoid feedback/rumble and all that jazz, I mean yes I can hear what I'm playing through them but it is usually painful to listen to, raspy and fizzy, this way I have full control over the positioning, tone and volume.


    The issue I have with FRFR is playing smaller pub/club gigs with say for instance my Iron Maiden cover band. A lot of gigs are vocal PA only setups. I have to use my traditional cab to get my sound into the room and if there is space I'll monitor myself with the Friedman FRFR wedge. I cannot just use the FRFR on its side or a speaker pole as my only cab, the other guitarist uses an Engl Powerball 2 with Marshall 1960AV and dials in a lot of mids, even with the 600 watt FRFR it can't compete with those mids and volume, I find it just sounds too scooped and "HI FI" compared to a traditional cab, which I'm sure everyone must have found if you listen to a real cab next to your FRFR??? I don't believe its the profile choices either as they sound almost perfect out the box to the desk and very rarely need even minor tweaking at the desk.


    I believe using FRFR would be fine for the heavier stuff if the other guitarist(s) are also using FRFR speakers, but for me I find when playing with another guitarist with a loud traditional stack it won't cut it. I mean I could dial more mids etc to make it sound more like a traditional cab but then I may as well just use my cab! Best thing is with the Kemper, I have all these options so I can play and get the sound I want in any situation.


    Sorry if this is hijacking the thread but I'd be interested to hear if other have found this situation.

  • Also...what I have found, speaking of transitioning to FRFR is I actually prefer the sound of my FRFR setup.


    A lot of the time I hear stuff like "I want to nail say Metallica's tone from the Black album it's my favourite tone ever", or the Van Halen brown sound, so people try relentlessly to copy these studio tones with a traditional amp setup, bypassing the fact they are hearing a mic'ed up studio tone. FRFR gives you a "studio" mic'ed tone.


    For instance someone says, "I want my Marshall rig to sound like VH1". They try everything dialing amp EQ, pedals, different cabs, pickups, but.....they are still comparing a CD through a HIFI to an "amp in the room" with them tone.
    They'd get much closer through FRFR with a studio/merged profile giving them the mic'ed sound they are hearing on record.

  • I didn't mean to stir up a bee's nest..LOL. I am just very used to hearing/feeling my guitar cabs. We do use in ears, but have a mic on stage to help with the ambient sound. I have heard my amp through the PA and it usually sounds good, but that is after the sound guy gets it dialed an in the mix. I was just looking for tips/suggestions on how others have made the switch to no cabs, that's all. I love what the kemper does and going to no cab other than a wedge is my goal as this will help with minimal load in/out time as well as consistent tone from night to night.


    I had great luck last night at rehearsal to get the wedge to sounds really good. It really is just hearing it differently from what I was used to.


    Thanks everyone for your input and discussion. I really like this forum!


    Steve

  • Yes, backline amplifiers are very popular in the USA. This is a leftover from the days when the only thing in the PA was vocals, and is "the look" of traditional rock band stage set ups.


    I guess this is the same all over the world... in Italy, for example, the PA is called "Voices Plant" :)




    I'm not understanding this whole "transition to FRFR" thing... In fact I wish that term would just go away, it confuses more people than it clarify's things... It's not that complicated... It's a PA speaker... The end...


    I believe the "transition" (as it is being discussed in these years) regards the fact that the guitarist doesn't rely at all on a guitar cab in order to generate their tone. Of course PAs and monitors have been used since a while now :)



    We miss having our pants flapping from the sound


    LOL
    While I see you pun, rest assured that 120-130 dB (easily generated by a linear system) are more than enough to flap your whole head! :D


    The point that's really different is the addition of the mic to the signal chain


    I'd also add the not-negligible issue of the listening spot: a guitar cab (unless you pimp it) sounds different depending on where you move on stage...



    and no one's smart enough to be able to replicate it without... yet


    Well, it's possible to mic a cab (or to create an IR or a profile) that sounds like the amp in the room: it's just non-trivial, as Jay Mitchell has been explaining for some times now.



    I run my Marshall 1960 as normal behind me also, helps for getting a more natural feedback


    This would still my favourite (and only) use of an amp close to me on stage :)

  • I still prefer my amp on stage and not run it through my monitor. I just want to hear my vocals up front and maybe a little of the drums . Plus if we get a system with limited monitor setup, then everyone would go through the monitors and it's too messy. Need to hear my vocals clean. I run my Roland KC350 on stage and it's been great.

  • I sold my CLRs. Yep... Didn't think I ever would, but the minute I listened to the FRFR Firehawk 1500 monitor in's I realized I didnt need them.


    Hi, did you prefer Firehawk 1500 so much to CLR? I was about to go with CLR, but this Line 6 has so much more features. Could you be more specific about your experience with Firehawk 1500 especially from sound perspective?


    Thanks! --Jake