Inaccurate direct profiles...

Quote from MattUlbricht

It seems to me that I am experiencing similar problems when creating a direct amp profile of an EVH 5150III (which has obviously been DI profiled successfully a thousand times). I must say, that I'm quiet confident I took care of everything as suggested as I read almost all the info I could find on this forum and the web:

- Connections: Just as shown in the manual, guitar->Kemper->Kemper direct out->Amp Input->Amp Output->DI-Box (PAD -40dB)->XLR-out->Kemper return Input, + DI-Box->Cabinet
- All cables are okay, DI-Box (passive) new and without any Cabsims
- All FX (stomps and post stack) switched off
- clean sense low enough so that the input LED remains green all the time
- return level low enough so that the Output LED remains green, too (tried many different levels, though)
- DI-Box is the admittetly cheap Millenium DI-E from thomann, but it was sold 998 times, 4.4 out of 5 stars... well...

Every time the result is a sound with too much rumbling in the bass which simply doesn't exist in the reference amp. Strangely, when comparing the dry Kemper-DI-profile (without cab) to the reference-amp-output-signal (again without cab) there was a significant difference: The bass rumbling only occured on the Kemper-DI-profile. The reference amp, eventhough monitored through (!) the cheap DI-Box, sounded as it should. (That's why I hopefully can eliminate the DI-Box as a source of the problems.) Well, we swapped the amp for another EVH and the results were better, but the rumbling remained at least audible. BUT here comes the even worse part:

The kemper's presence knob as well as the treble show some really strange behaviour when tweaking the DI-profile:
- dialing the presence up results in metallic/shrill and unharmonic overlapping sounds while even becoming kind of out of tune...? I cannot find such a behaviour in any other profiles I own nor on the reference amp itself.
- the same is true for treble, worst results occur when dialing up presence above 2 o'clock and treble at the same time. It just does not sound like something you would expect these knobs to do... well, not even a heavy metal guitar amplifier
(- less severe, but the same goes for the gain: the knob's behaviour is not reproduced accurately, the highest levels of gain seem digital and unpleasent)

Now, my questions:

What am I doing wrong? Is it possible that the KPA gets into trouble, when trying to reproduce higher values of any knob setting on the reference amp?
When profiling an amp, what settings should be used on the reference amp? Is it okay to dial in presence (or anything else) at 3 o'clock or should I use "flat" Settings at, let's say 12 o'clock? Or should "the perfect sound" be profiled "as is" in any case? Apart from clipping: Does the return level have any influence on the resulting profile? (The manual says that it doesn't, because the KPA adjusts the level anyways... but as of now it remains the only questionable part I can see, apart from the cheap DI-Box of course.)

Thanks a lot for any help!

Matthias

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There shouldn't be a problem with your choice of DI box, I think - see here: DI-boxes suitable to create Direct Amplifier Profiles

I'd contact support - this sounds a bit strange there's a link in my signature

I am having issues where the profile no matter how I adjust settings WILL NOT replicate the reference amp sound. It is a direct from the computer out of BIAS AMP 2. It flattens the sound in the mids and also is way more brittle on the top end. Seems also to be adding extra noise as in distortion in not a good way! Anybody else having this issue and is there a fix??
Thanks

I have the same problems with DI profiles. I gave up for the time being. Studio profiles are fine. DI sounds like all mid/high information is rolled out and the gain is way too much. Like a really bad attempt at creating a DI fuzz sound with a rat pedal and a stock DAW eq. And no engineering experience. ? Only certain amps though. 2 of the 4 amps I attempted to capture a DI profile of were in flat-out opposition to the idea. The one is a little Gibson Minuteman. Probably not even 10 watts. EL84 amp. Peashooter. I was even using the Kemper DI. It kept telling me the level was too hot. This was with the input gain at -32. For a goof, I added a Shure in-line pad for another -15 or -20db and got the same message. It was to the point where I couldn’t even hear it through my speakers/headphones. Only through the wall.

My thread was 5 or 6 pages long and everyone tried to help. Some more helpful than others. I found myself having to re-explain the issue a bunch of times and nothing ever really got resolved. Within that thread, others chimed in as I am doing now, saying that they had the same issue. Unless you’ve heard “the sound”, it’s hard to relate. I opened a support ticket as well and got a couple responses. I replied with files and data at the support team’s request and that’s the last I heard anything about it. I saw in a different thread (about this same problem) that the Kemper engineers are aware of it and working toward some kind of solution/fix. I imagine it takes time. Which is why I’m a little astonished that someone posted earlier in this thread that this is the first they’ve heard of it.

After “giving up”, I decided to look for some DI profiles from some reputable profile makers and to be honest.... I didn’t find any that I could play a gig with. This tells me that even the amps that will allow you to capture a DI profile only do so kicking & screaming. They must require a lot of manipulation after the fact. You can only do so much before things start getting lost.

I feel your pain. Hopefully a solution is on the way.

Quote from absrec

After “giving up”, I decided to look for some DI profiles from some reputable profile makers and to be honest.... I didn’t find any that I could play a gig with. This tells me that even the amps that will allow you to capture a DI profile only do so kicking & screaming. They must require a lot of manipulation after the fact. You can only do so much before things start getting lost.

Or maybe people dial in the amps differently to what you would maybe prefer -- and PU/guitar/purpose requires different settings? I've made direct profiles of oranges, laneys, marshalls, suhrs, all direct, all more or less similarly accurate. Studio profiles of these amps have also been very, very similar in regards to accuracy. That is assuming direct profiling worked ok. I have had cases where the result was totally off.

Quote from Dimi84

Or maybe people dial in the amps differently to what you would maybe prefer -- and PU/guitar/purpose requires different settings? I've made direct profiles of oranges, laneys, marshalls, suhrs, all direct, all more or less similarly accurate. Studio profiles of these amps have also been very, very similar in regards to accuracy. That is assuming direct profiling worked ok. I have had cases where the result was totally off.

I just know what I hear. I don’t want to hijack the OP’s thread either. The ones you said were “totally off”? That’s what we’re talking about. I was just pointing out that I feel (from personal experience) that the DI capturing process needs work. The extreme examples showcased in various threads are just another symptom.

Quote from absrec

That’s what we’re talking about. I was just pointing out that I feel (from personal experience) that the DI capturing process needs work. The extreme examples showcased in various threads are just another symptom.

As far as I understand, you alluded to inaccuracies (maybe meant something different?) in third party, commercial (direct) profiles you tried out. Considering this, my point was that these profiles, at least most such profiles -- unless someone published one that's way off, where something went very wrong -- are unlikely to suffer from inaccuracies that are exclusive to direct profiling. If something's way off, and something goes wrong, for whatever reason, people typically don't publish such profiles to sell.

Quote from Dimi84

As far as I understand, you alluded to inaccuracies (maybe meant something different?) in third party, commercial (direct) profiles you tried out. Considering this, my point was that these profiles, at least most such profiles -- unless someone published one that's way off, where something went very wrong -- are unlikely to suffer from inaccuracies that are exclusive to direct profiling. If something's way off, and something goes wrong, for whatever reason, people typically don't publish such profiles to sell.

I understand. I’ve just had a different experience with regard to DI profiles. They just always feel drab to me. Who knows? Cabinets vary so much too so I’m sure that plays a role. One of the packs I tried specifically states that if you aren’t planning on using a cabinet to favor the studio profile. I don’t remember what it said verbatim but it was related that the merged profiles just don’t retain all of the magic contained in the studio version. Especially when working with an amp that doesn’t agree with the KPA! ?

Quote from absrec

I understand. I’ve just had a different experience with regard to DI profiles. They just always feel drab to me. Who knows? Cabinets vary so much too so I’m sure that plays a role. One of the packs I tried specifically states that if you aren’t planning on using a cabinet to favor the studio profile. I don’t remember what it said verbatim but it was related that the merged profiles just don’t retain all of the magic contained in the studio version. Especially when working with an amp that doesn’t agree with the KPA! ?

I just stumbled on this thread as I'm having the same issues with some amps - its usually when the sounds are clean, or very light crunch OR if there a lot more power amp distortion. I was thinking of trying the Kemper DI as that seems to be the default response from people, but it sounds like the result is exactly the same (and what I'd expect given the DI's I'm using currently are designed to be used between amp and cab without changing the signal at all).

Its frustrating because for most sounds direct profiles work amazingly well and I much prefer that method. On the times when it doesnt work, rather than capturing a beautiful clean sound, it ends up sounding like Smashing Pumpkins.

Quote from easstudios

I just stumbled on this thread as I'm having the same issues with some amps - its usually when the sounds are clean, or very light crunch OR if there a lot more power amp distortion. I was thinking of trying the Kemper DI as that seems to be the default response from people, but it sounds like the result is exactly the same (and what I'd expect given the DI's I'm using currently are designed to be used between amp and cab without changing the signal at all).

Its frustrating because for most sounds direct profiles work amazingly well and I much prefer that method. On the times when it doesnt work, rather than capturing a beautiful clean sound, it ends up sounding like Smashing Pumpkins.

Quote from absrec

I understand. I’ve just had a different experience with regard to DI profiles. They just always feel drab to me. Who knows? Cabinets vary so much too so I’m sure that plays a role. One of the packs I tried specifically states that if you aren’t planning on using a cabinet to favor the studio profile. I don’t remember what it said verbatim but it was related that the merged profiles just don’t retain all of the magic contained in the studio version. Especially when working with an amp that doesn’t agree with the KPA! ?

Well at the risk of floggin a dead horse on a thread thats old, I have the same. Thing is my profiles were ok with same amp an settings an now I got this problem. So all fine, then not fine. Same amp, same di boxes, same settings. No updates on the unit or nothing. Very very strange. Drives me nuts. I love my unit but im soooo close to pissing this kemper unit off.