Just Curious ........ Has Development of the " Profiling / Profile Playback Engine " ceased (?) and is Kemper now only concentrating on features / efx etc ..... (?)

  • Just curious ...... I was thinking about this the other day.


    Unlike other platforms which have to constantly model and improve their modelling to add new amps to their products, the Kemper is a different animal.


    However, this then kind of begs the question .....


    a => are the Kemper Profiling / Profiling Playback Engine / Algorithms already as good / accurate / perfect as they can be (?)


    or


    b => is Kemper still working on making this side of things better / more accurate (?)


    From my experience / knowedge so far, there was an issue with the bass / low end freq's back in the 1.x FW days which was subsequently addressed ..... but since then, its all been about non-Profiling-enhancements .....


    Anyone else see / think this ?


    Like all digital products I'm sure [ presume ? ] that the Kemper Profiling / Profiling Playback Engine / Algorithms etc.... can always be made better .... or maybe they are already perfect ?


    Ben

  • Hi,


    For me, the next enhancements would be about :


    1 - an automatic refining in case of. In my case, it is always very difficult to get 100% faithful reproduction of Boogie Mark amps for instance, and it needs always a lot of refining. Refining is not an exact science as it can improve the tone or make the opposite. There is still a lot of mystery and misunderstanding about this step (refining) and it really lacks a nice official video tutorial about refining, what to play to correct the low end for instance, and so on...


    2 - Moreover, the profiling method was designed for close mic'ing. Perhaps next step could also include the "room" tone. I imagine it would be DSP consuming because it would need long IRs. Perhaps the idea would be to make a reverb algorithm than matches the "room ambience" during the profiling. The Space function is a good approach, but it lacks some control parameters. Perhaps should be easier for Kemper to "model" the amp room parameters than profiling it.


    3 - In the profiler mode, an easy way also would be to include all the amp parameters available during the A/B comparison. We have currently have the stack eq, power sag, but it lacks all the rest (tube shape, amp compressor, pick attack, ...) this would be an easy way to get closer to the reference amp tone !


    I think these proposals would get the profiling process even better

  • I think we may see some minor incremental improvements in profiling process for this generation, maybe to just refine the matching with some of those tough mesa amps, but most likely the next big change to how the next generation of profiles will sound/respond will happen with new hardware and my money is on dual amp blocks.


    Of course I'd love to be wrong and get to see room profiling for distant mic'd profiles, if we're very lucky it could perhaps come as part of updated/newer reverbs. I've been asking for this since the Kemper came out, but I'm just not sure it's a goal for the Kemper team.


    If they did make amp/insert block improvements then my list would be


    1) Room profiling
    2) Dual amps
    3) Some additional "fun" (rather than physically modeled) controls. I can imagine a control that tied into compression for "chewiness", maybe a "brown out threshold" control for truly farty sounding amps etc.

  • Also, profiling amps where both pre and power sections are being driven to distortion


    This is a big one.


    Ive been "banging on" about this for ages as it is impossible to profile an amp that produces pre and power stage distortion at the same time ie: Ch 2 of a [cranked up ] DC30 or the Top Boost Channel of a [cranked up] AC30 ..... Ive tried each many times .. both studio and/or merged ..... the Kemper simply does not "understand" and "de-construct" what it is "hearing".


    The other suggestions ..... especially [say] combining [and then variably mixing] close and more-distant-room'ish mic'ing ... are great too.


    Ben

  • Analyzing this Board requests and demands for the new features , 99.999 % of guys are only interested in effects , editors ..ie. "side " and gadget things.


    0.0001% of guys ,without any success, asking for improvement in TONE from the very beginning.
    That means maybe 2 or 3 of us ;)


    BTW, Kemper started this whole story by offering unprecedented natural, organic amp tone, not artificial digital effect device with PC or iPhone performances .


    I hope , one day, when all of those gadget requests are fulfilled and mass majority are finally happy , Kemper will finally have free hands and time to work on his original idea and on only one thing which matters - the sound.


    ps
    now watch this space , there are few guys who will immediately attack my humble post asking : "What is wrong with Kemper sound/profiling ?"

    1988 Branko Radulovic Hand Made Strat in Macedonia (SFRJ)

    2006 Steve Vai vwh moded with SS frets and Sustainac 2006 (Japan)

    2008 Fender YJM , moded (USA)

    2010 Tom Andersons Drop Top 2010 (made in California)

    2017 Charvel GG sig Caramelised Ash (USA)

    2022 Gibson ES 335 2011 Custom Shop Cherry of course ( Memphis)



  • Hey, what's wrong with the Kemper sound? ;)

  • :D:D:D !

    1988 Branko Radulovic Hand Made Strat in Macedonia (SFRJ)

    2006 Steve Vai vwh moded with SS frets and Sustainac 2006 (Japan)

    2008 Fender YJM , moded (USA)

    2010 Tom Andersons Drop Top 2010 (made in California)

    2017 Charvel GG sig Caramelised Ash (USA)

    2022 Gibson ES 335 2011 Custom Shop Cherry of course ( Memphis)

  • Of course nothing is wrong with the sound, but what is wrong is attention only to the "side" things .
    So, I have another question :


    What is wrong with Kemper effects , Rig manager , routing , etc ?


    Why only improvements in those "gadgets " and side things and never improvement in sound/tone (profiling) in the last 4-5 years ?

    1988 Branko Radulovic Hand Made Strat in Macedonia (SFRJ)

    2006 Steve Vai vwh moded with SS frets and Sustainac 2006 (Japan)

    2008 Fender YJM , moded (USA)

    2010 Tom Andersons Drop Top 2010 (made in California)

    2017 Charvel GG sig Caramelised Ash (USA)

    2022 Gibson ES 335 2011 Custom Shop Cherry of course ( Memphis)

  • Of course nothing is wrong with the sound, but what is wrong is attention only to the "side" things .
    So, I have another question :


    What is wrong with Kemper effects , Rig manager , routing , etc ?


    Why only improvements in those "gadgets " and side things and never improvement in sound/tone (profiling) in the last 4-5 years ?



    Even though you say nothing is wrong with the sound, it seems like you still think some aspects could be better, is that right? (otherwise I don't understand you point)
    I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about this.


    Side note: there HAS been an improvement to the sound/profiling within the last 2 years, though - the Low Frequency Compensation thing.


    As to your other point regarding "side things", I think that's what the majority of current and potential users are looking for, as you allude to yourself - so I think that's a business decision, apart from the company likely feeling the profiling and "basic" sound is already optimal.

  • <p>I say this with peace and love</p>


    <p>Most of my posts have been about this very issue.</p>


    <p>I'd say there is a lot of room for improvement. I've never been able to capture the magic of any of my Mesa preamps. &nbsp;</p>


    <p>It does a good job profiling the whole rack minus effects, miked through a cab. That is not what I bought it for.</p>


    <p>I mainly do preamp profiles hoping that one day I can replace my Mesa quad and Triaxis and have my favorite settings in my Kemper. But running profiles through the rest of the rack sounds mediocre at best, compared to the real thing.</p>


    <p>It is very easy for me to tell if it's a preamp profile vs a real preamp.</p>


    <p>I've given up on trying since the update that supposedly made it perfect for direct amp and preamp profiles didn't solve the issue. I've made hundreds of preamp profiles since that update and not once felt it captured the mojo.<span style="line-height:1.28">It sounds similar but is always missing something, and feels very different to me when playing.</span></p>


    <p>If you've had better luck than good for you. It's just not quite there for me.</p>


    <p>Maybe I just have hard to profile amps? If that's the case, then there is a prime opportunity for them to step up and improve the profiling algorithm.</p>


    <p>I think the real problem is the fanboys who run around flaming anyone with a opinion that their precious isn't perfect. I for one rarely participate in this forum because of this.</p>


    <p>Mr Kemper probably thinks it's already perfect, due to them.</p>


    <p>Once again, I feel like I'm pissing in the wind. If/when they ever fix this I'll be the first to sing their praises, until then it is what it is.</p>

  • As the OP ..... maybe I should put it a bit more directly:-


    -> the KPA is AWESOME


    -> I use both a KPA and an Axe 2 BUT use the KPA for all my recording and the KPA for probably 3/4 [or more] of everything else I do ..... and this aint changing anu time soon [ever ? ] .....but I have no criticism of the Fravtal stuff - it too is AWESOME ... its just a different beast


    -> the KPA cannot and does not capture the sound of every amp as it is currently marketed .... two simple examples above are well know .... [ some / many ] Mesa settings also are very " iffy " again depending on the cascading nature and pre/power overdrive components of the tone to be profiled


    -> NONE of this is a complaint or sledge


    My point


    -> I know from direct experience that the KPA Profiling " magic " can / should be better and more accurate


    -> I have no doubt Kemper also know this


    My issue / thought


    -> it is very unclear to me if " this side of things " is even being worked on any more (?)


    -> other than the low feq / bass issue from FW 1.x ......nothing has been said or mooted about improvments to the Profiling engine ...... we got "merged" profiles but that was just "formalising" a process that was doablew from Day 1


    My Question


    a -> has the Profiling Engine reached its "peak" and is it now as good as it can/will get (?)


    or


    b -> is this under constant development / improvement / refinement from Kemper (?)


    My sense is that its (a) simply because nothing from Kempoer ever seems to mention that its (b)


    Hope this males sense.


    Ben

  • Congrats to OP , you opened the main question around whole of this KPA phenomenon , at least for me - the most important one .



    I'm afraid CK will spend all of the rest of memory and processing power left in KPA just for gadgets , effects ,editors, ie "side " things .


    If above is correct , nothing will be left on to work on improving (if there is any possible yet ) profiling, ie sound .


    I am 100% sure it was not his original idea , but unfortunately , he have to follow mass majority of fanboy base requests.


    On that way KPA will lost its identity ad main market advantage .


    I hope CK and team will go back to their original philosophy , and try to improve profiling process (ie natural sound ) even more .


    If KPA reached a peak , and my first statement in this post is incorrect , which means no more room for improvement in sound, no hassle , I am fine with that .


    Still the most awesome guitar device on the market .

    1988 Branko Radulovic Hand Made Strat in Macedonia (SFRJ)

    2006 Steve Vai vwh moded with SS frets and Sustainac 2006 (Japan)

    2008 Fender YJM , moded (USA)

    2010 Tom Andersons Drop Top 2010 (made in California)

    2017 Charvel GG sig Caramelised Ash (USA)

    2022 Gibson ES 335 2011 Custom Shop Cherry of course ( Memphis)

    Edited 7 times, last by Rescator ().



  • I'm afraid CK will spend all of the rest of memory and processing power left in KPA just for gadgets , effects ,editors, ie "side " things .


    I am 100% sure it was not his original idea , but unfortunately , he have to follow mass majority of fanboy base requests.


    I hope CK and team will go back to their original philosophy , and try to improve profiling process (ie natural sound ) even more .


    Hi all


    I have to say that this is my sense also.


    I have to think that the "delay" pardon the pun in getting the new delays is that CK is trying to figure out how on earth to get the existing hardware to process hi-quality delay / reverb algorithms without the juice for everything else being sucked dry .... it is no accident that since day one, the Kemper has only been able to run 1 x instance of delay ..... I reckon theres some very intense code optimization and " code fudging " goign on to make this all work


    The Kemper is an amp " emulator " / " copier " / "profiler " / "duplicator " etc.... call it what you will.


    It is very, very, VERY FREAKIN good at this


    If you want to hear just how good it is, try the Axe FX Tone Matching ..... Kemper Profiling vs Axe Tone Matrching is like comparing a Porsche to Toyota ...... both are cars ... but thats it.


    My concern is that the push for bells and whisltes has taken Kemper away from further improving the core Kemper function .......


    Then again, maybe / if in 1 / 2 / 3 years time when the KPA 2 comes out [ :) ] it will feature even better profiling [ and a lot more juice under the hood ] .... I hope that isnt the case as one of the major things Kemper pushed from the start was that like their synths ..... the Kemper would be the core and basis for sonic development.


    If my core need is effects, routing, tweaking and amp tone is secondary to this .... I'll use my Axe ... no problems ..... thats all good


    If my core need is amp tone and effects, routing, tweaking and sonic bliss is secondary to this .... I'll use my Kemper ... no problems ... thats all good too.


    The conundrum is that based on everything we know .... the KPA does not have the grunt / juice to be the perfect tone machine and the perfect fx / tweaking / routing machine ....... so when " resources " are scarce, I would have thought that making your core reason for existence as close to perfect as possible was imperative ....... and then the " other stuff " is secondary to this.


    Time will tell I guess.


    Ben



  • Hey, what's wrong with the Kemper sound? ;-)[/


    the Kemper tone is nice
    but there are 2 types of Kemper users:
    1- the ones who only play with profiles made by other guys. To me the Kemper quality of tone is great ! So this thread is not relevant for them


    2- the other guys who actually profile amps : this thread is relevant only for them. Some have the chance to get amps which can be easily profiles. Other amps can't. This is my case... So in my case the Kemper doesn't do exactly what what it claims to do (accurate profiling).

  • While I would wish for more glasnost & perestroika in some older issues which should not be so "top secret" anymore (like pure cab,space etc) I would not want CK to come here every few weeks or months to tell us about how much "more realer" the sound of the KPA is now with the next new FW..and I guess that noone here wants this.Personally I am very happy about this.


    If the profling process gets better with every FW I just hope CK and his guys keeps this as top secret as with some other issues...now it is my turn to say this fine favorite phrase in this blog:Just trust your ears.. ;)