Commercial profiles seem REALLY bright at gig levels, anyone else notice this?

    So since I got my kemper I had been using my buddy's Morgan Dual 40 profile that he made through a Palmer PDI-03 which is just fantastic at gig levels. Sounds dark at home but at gig level it has the nice voxy midrange and top end. I bump up the gain maybe halfway on that profile since it's pretty clean out of the box. Profiles available here: https://drive.google.com/open?…bQyJW0RvajQzlPWXlTakFHWFk


    However, like the dog with a bone seeing its reflection in the water, a few months ago I started experimenting with other profiles (TAF AC30, both TopJimi AC30s, Mbritt's profile packs including his AC30s). They sound fine, maybe a little bright at home levels or when played alone through my IEMs. But when playing with a track through IEMs they sort of disappear and sound super tinny.


    Last week I played a whole show that I knew I was going to be recorded (just for the band) with the TopJimi AC30 NORMAL profile just to experiment. Not even the top boost ones because those are just an ice picky mess in my opinion. I made sure the sound guy left my EQ flat with just a 200hz or so HPF as is common for guitars. When I listened to the mix I was just shocked at how thin my guitar sounded. Very tinny, no body at all, even on my awesome duesenberg bridge humbucker that just crushes on my regular Dual 40 profile. My tele was just ear piercing. I kind of knew this going into the show but I wanted to verify in a live environment since that's a lot different from playing to a track at home.


    Anyone else experience this? I have no stomp EQs on, master & monitor EQs are flat. Monitoring with wireless IEMs mixed from the monitor desk.

    It of course depends on the profiles but I experienced the very opposite thing. To my ears most of the profiles sound dark and muddy at home levels and I often tweak them to my needs what than leads to very bright sounds at live levels which is due to Fletcher-Munson curves and therefore nothing special.


    But I cannot confirm what you experience. Is the TopJimi a free profile? If so I'd try this at home and would tell you if I can confirm if you provide me a link.

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    I agree, I have found a few cabs that sound great at giglevel so I tend to use those on all rigs I'm using live...the only profiles I've found so far that works without much tweaking are some of mBritts profiles.
    To me, recording-ready and gig-ready profiles are two different things.


    edit: I mean I find most profiles too bright/harsh at giglevels even with my les pauls..

    Quote from 10w73

    I experienced the very opposite thing. To my ears most of the profiles sound dark and muddy at home levels


    This. I always have to adjust Definition and/or Bass although, with good commercial profiles, that's about it.

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    Like 2
    Quote from Michael_dk

    Yeah, a 200 Hz is definitely getting into the thickness/fullness/meaty territory. That could definitely make something sound thin.


    True. That may be ok in some cases while recording but will sound very thin listening just to that particular guitar. I always go for 85 - 125 Hz for live situations depending on the rig and feel.

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    Yes. Not to name some commercial sellers in particular but I find some of them aim for a sound that is very pleasing at low volume, usually by cranking up the definition very high or applying specific EQ's... this seems to translate into the bad effect you describe in live playing.


    I had that happen to me at a gig and the night before the next one, I got some MBritt and glad I did. At high volume, they sounded ballsy, balanced and amazing. Not sure what to use the other commercial profiles I bought for now, I might give them another shot later by turning their definition way down or something.

    Quote from JedMckenna

    Yes. Not to name some commercial sellers in particular but I find some of them aim for a sound that is very pleasing at low volume, usually by cranking up the definition very high or applying specific EQ's... this seems to translate into the bad effect you describe in live playing.


    I had that happen to me at a gig and the night before the next one, I got some MBritt and glad I did. At high volume, they sounded ballsy, balanced and amazing. Not sure what to use the other commercial profiles I bought for now, I might give them another shot later by turning their definition way down or something.


    Try setting them up by fiddling with definition, presence, treble and also the input and distortion sense in the input settings.

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    Can you get some time at rehearsal and tweak your settings with the band? Maybe record a tune or two? If you can get it to sound good on the IEM's and it sounds thick on your recordings, problem solved, yes?


    When it comes a fatter tone you might try lowering your cut-off around 85 to 100Hz and do some careful EQ'ing in the 100 to 500 Hz area, maybe roll off a little 4K-5K. And, if possible, do this at the highest volume you can get away with. Perferably with the band. If not, a decent bass and drum loop will help immensely with your EQ choices.


    Do this with your darkest and brightest guitars


    It's true that a lot of profiles are made to be played at mid volumes. That's why I like M. Britt's stuff so much ... to me it's gig ready.


    Best of luck!

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    This is a common feature of equal-loudness (aka Fletcher-Munson) curves. This is one reason it's a good idea to listen to profiles at gig level when creating them(assuming you gig).


    Thats what I said is the normal behavior:


    Quote from 10w73

    what than leads to very bright sounds at live levels which is due to Fletcher-Munson curves


    But for him it's the other way 'round. Normally it would sound bright and harsh when set up at lower levels but for him it sounds dull with lots of bottom end. This isn't Fletcher-Munson at all. It sounded good at live levels and too bright at normal levels.

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    Quote from MLScola

    If not, a decent bass and drum loop will help immensely with your EQ choices.


    That is indeed a great idea. I have to try that next time I set up things.

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    Quote from 10w73

    Thats what I said is the normal behavior:



    But for him it's the other way 'round. Normally it would sound bright and harsh when set up at lower levels but for him it sounds dull with lots of bottom end. This isn't Fletcher-Munson at all. It sounded good at live levels and too bright at normal levels.


    Thanks for the reply but I was under the impression that at higher volumes the ear is more sensitive to high and low frequencies. Which means that a profile that might sound a bit dark at home volumes might be great live, but a profile that is nice and bright at home volumes will be ear piercingly bright at live volumes, which is exactly what I'm experiencing.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    This is a common feature of equal-loudness (aka Fletcher-Munson) curves. This is one reason it's a good idea to listen to profiles at gig level when creating them(assuming you gig).


    Yeah that's why I always set up my profiles to be darker when I'm at home. They sound bright and full live. I was just stumped as to why most of the profiles I've bought seem to be set up for recording or home level playing. Even at home some of them are really bright, especially the top boost profiles (which makes sense obviously).

    Quote from strabes

    Thanks for the reply but I was under the impression that at higher volumes the ear is more sensitive to high and low frequencies. Which means that a profile that might sound a bit dark at home volumes might be great live, but a profile that is nice and bright at home volumes will be ear piercingly bright at live volumes, which is exactly what I'm experiencing.


    In that case of course everything makes perfect sense. It may be that you also perceive low frequencies different but it really becomes obvious with the higher ones.

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    Quote from strabes

    Yeah that's why I always set up my profiles to be darker when I'm at home. They sound bright and full live. I was just stumped as to why most of the profiles I've bought seem to be set up for recording or home level playing. Even at home some of them are really bright, especially the top boost profiles (which makes sense obviously).


    Some of it depends on the monitoring that's used when the profiles are created. It also depends on what you're listening through.


    Thanks for the advice, I will try that out. I'm obviously not an engineer so I just go with what I've picked up online or from players I respect around town.

    Quote from paults


    2) applying a 200hz or so high pass to rigs that have been profiled to sound good without a high pass will make them sound very thin.


    I thought this too, Paul, and then there's the HPF slope to consider...


    Quote from Michael_dk

    Yeah, a 200 Hz is definitely getting into the thickness/fullness/meaty territory. That could definitely make something sound thin.


    ... especially if is 18dB or more an octave, or even 12.


    Quote from ColdFrixion

    This is a common feature of equal-loudness (aka Fletcher-Munson) curves. This is one reason it's a good idea to listen to profiles at gig level when creating them(assuming you gig).


    When I saw the question in the title, asking "Anyone else notice this?", my knee-jerk thought was to say, "Yeah, Fletcher and Munson did a looong time ago!".


    An HPF aint an HPF, just like oils aint oils. More information is needed.


    If the roll-off was 6dB / octave, which is quite commonly used, but more so back in the day when conservative values ruled the roost in mixing (remember the white lab coats?), it wouldn't have destroyed much of the warmth and character of the Profile/s, you'd think. However, in live situations, IMHO much-steeper slopes are used often and without second thoughts. This is because when the FOH engineer hears a bunch of mud and lowish-end mic boom that's bordering on feedback and so on, his / her priority is to squash the problem, and he / she reaches for the heaviest hammer in the toolbox. I expect that, by default, most live desks are set up with pretty-steep slopes selected as their default live starting points.


    I suggest asking the engineer what the slope's dB / octave rate was. If it was 12, 18 or even more, that could've been your problem right there IMHO.