Profiles and the guitar they made with - what does it really mean?

  • Please tell me if I got this right:


    Say somebody had a traditional 70s Strat with single coils. Say this somebody profiles a Marshall JTM45. He sets the gain to about an average Hendrix like sound. He refines this profile until A/B reveals no difference - that means: at this certain gain the amp / cabinet is perefctly captured. And the guitar is OUT of EQUATION. It is guitar neutral. Correct?


    Now I will grab that profile. Say I do have the ultimate perfectly flat monitors. I also do have a 70s Strat. I will get a very, very similar sound at the same gain. Slight differences in pickup variation and strings, though. But the overall tone is just right.


    Say I now plug in my Gretsch, hollow body with blacktop filtertrons. It will sound quite different. But how close will this sound to the real JTM45 and my Gretsch now? If the guitar is out of equation after profiling then it should again be identical. Or very close to that. Correct?


    So now why are there profiles like "Hollow body pack" or "single coil pack"? In my (Kemper-beginner's) understanding I dont need such a profile but the hollow body guitar instead or a single coil guitar! No?


    Maybe its the sweet spot of the amp during profiling? And this will be different for each type of guitar?

    Ne travaillez jamais.

  • You're right. I guess hollow body packs are made to have a profile sound good with a hollow body guitar without tweaking.


    If you plug-in a strat and tweak an amp to sound good, the settings won't necessarily sound good with another guitar. It's the same with Kemper profiles.
    (you can surely tweak them to sound good, but they won't necessarily sound good with any guitar out of the box)

  • hi , I'm the one who did these packs, my aim was not to refine with a specific kind of pickup or guitar. Instead I made the choice of profiling my amps/preamps on the RIGHT settings for a SPECIFIC guitar or pickup. It's quite important for me to setup amp regarding the guitar.


    My approach is based on the fact that prior to having a kemper I used to dial my amps at different settings if was using a Les Paul or a strat, and most my amp did have 2 inputs ( hi/lo) to adapt to the guitar (SC/HB). And yes I think the sweet spot of each amp varies with the guitar. most people are profiling with a single guitar type, this can be quite restrictive IMO. I fount some exceptions with the profiles made with P90 (MBritt for instance) as P90 are just in the middle of a SC/HB regarding the design.


    With most other profiles (commercial or free) I have to do some minor adjustments to get the full reward. My rigs don't need any other tweak than gain , it's very confortable for me , as I don't have to think about tweaking , but just concentrate on music. I grab the guitar that inspires me the most (depending on my mood and feel) , turn on my KPA , open my own directory in rig manager (sorted by pickup type), sort them by gain, and here I go :)


    I'm maybe the only one organizing my profiles this way, but I used to tweak the most brilliant profiles here for each of my guitars, sometimes very slightly ( we know that a 0.3 difference in 'definition' can largely improve a profile on a given guitar) resulting in 3 or 4 different rigs . Afterwards I would gather all the mods in their respective 'guitar' repository. Another approach would be building performances for each guitar.

  • I think perhaps the main thing you overlooked with your reasoning, Spinner, was the tone-stack on the amp.


    Sure, the gain will vary depending upon the heat of the PUs used, but when tweaking an amp for any given guitar the EQ, IMHO, is gonna be the most critical factor.


    IOW, when I see that profile X was created using a SC Strat, I read that as "EQ'd for an SC Strat" out of the box / by default.

  • IOW, when I see that profile X was created using a SC Strat, I read that as "EQ'd for an SC Strat" out of the box / by default.


    Yes, indeed. I started the Kemper with my Gretsch and its blacktop filtertrons. I did not expect too many profiles to be originally created with such a guitar. So I was prepared...


    But my first choice was not the tone-stack. There is a tiny little sound engineer sitting somewhere in my head. He told me I should do it more "scientifcally"... he mentioned a pickup database with the frequency response of many popular PUs.


    http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=400


    So I printed my blacktop filtertrons against the PU I assumed to be the original. And then I plugged a graphic EQ into stomp A to compensate for that. It worked to a certain degree and he was happy. After that I took over control again and used the tone-stack to make it sound nice and right... :D (Seriously: the combination of both is *very* powerfull)


    A Humbucker dos not sound like a Single Coil and this is not frequency respoinse alone, as we all know. The great thing about the blacktop filtertrons is: they are really in between both worlds! So I can achieve "almost" SC-like sounds and with different settings really fat "almost" PAF humbucker sounds. Did I mention that I love my Gretsch?!? 8)

    Ne travaillez jamais.

  • LOL That's a real sound engineer's approach.


    My Monkey Approach™ is to use the definition, clarity, pick and amp-compression controls before I even think about EQ, and that's only the tone stack... which I barely touch, if at all. I've never in my life used a slot EQ or "general" one, such as what L6 offers, on any modeller I've ever owned. That's the purist engineer in me that wants to colour the natural tone of amps as little as possible prior to tracking.


    Thanks for sharing Spinner. I don't know if your thread has helped you at all, but hopefully there was something in it for you.

  • Yeah I second that Nicky

    Monkey Approach™


    , I barely touch any EQ since definition, clarity, and direct signal (love this one) are my favorite tweaks for any amp profile to match a given guitar. I will mostly use bass EQ to give more punch to a rhythm rig or mids to enhance a fat lead tone , that's pretty much all I have to do.


    BTW I wish I had the definition and clarity upfront instead of presence and noise gate, maybe I have to write a feature request

  • Ha! Glad I'm not alone on this one. If you hit the EQ first you've made a crude adjustment of a single parameter, so to speak, whereas the others we mentioned have sophisticated effects in tone, playability and response - much more than the one-dimensional alterations made by the EQ stack. I look at the EQ therefore as icing, a topping I rarely need. I'm a cream-with-everything kinda guy anyway (in an ideal world where my illness didn't prevent me from eating as normal folks do).


    Get it? Cream? I couldn't get a single teaspoon of it out of my POD HD (the earlier models were much better in this respect, IMHO), but the Kemper lays it on by the bucket load. The Mothership™ should bundle a bottle of Swedish Bitters™ with every unit to help keep our livers pumping. :D


    Great minds, mate, great minds... or in my case, great, empty skull cavities, Batman. :D

  • If you hit the EQ first you've made a crude adjustment of a single parameter, so to speak, whereas the others we mentioned have sophisticated effects in tone, playability and response - much more than the one-dimensional alterations made by the EQ stack. I look at the EQ therefore as icing, a topping I rarely need. I'm a cream-with-everything kinda guy anyway (in an ideal world where my illness didn't prevent me from eating as normal folks do).


    Thats the real world approach to get the coolest sound with a particular amp and guitar. Proven. No matter if its a real tube or a Kemper- no difference. Thats what I also do to get a cool SC, filtertron or PAF sound out of an amp and a certain guitar.


    What I described above is more my try to take the Kemper literally, if one can say so. The Kemper is a kindof ultra-versatile amp-machine, and if loaded and tuned correctly it can sound like almost anything ever made. I have fun cloneing this idea when dealing with the filtertrons. They are really ultra-flexible in sound. With the Kemper's ability to use a guitar amp as a sound engineer (i.e. micro delays for comb filtering or graphic or studio EQ) I made my Gretsch so versatile, I couldn't believe it at the beginning. Its just fun. C'mon, everybody thinks Gretsch = rockabilly or country, no? :D

    Ne travaillez jamais.

  • Hey, its understanding the Kemper! Bit by bit. Even better: learning about the workflow or approach of the others. Any input is highly appreciatetd! :P


    ... and your appreciation is highly appreciated... and "Liked", Spinner!


    Thats the real world approach to get the coolest sound with a particular amp and guitar. Proven. No matter if its a real tube or a Kemper- no difference. Thats what I also do to get a cool SC, filtertron or PAF sound out of an amp and a certain guitar.


    What I described above is more my try to take the Kemper literally, if one can say so. The Kemper is a kindof ultra-versatile amp-machine, and if loaded and tuned correctly it can sound like almost anything ever made. I have fun cloneing this idea when dealing with the filtertrons. They are really ultra-flexible in sound. With the Kemper's ability to use a guitar amp as a sound engineer (i.e. micro delays for comb filtering or graphic or studio EQ) I made my Gretsch so versatile, I couldn't believe it at the beginning. Its just fun. C'mon, everybody thinks Gretsch = rockabilly or country, no? :D


    Agreed on all fronts. Dammit, I "Liked" you again, Spinner.


  • Agreed on all fronts. Dammit, I "Liked" you again, Spinner.


    Hey Monkey mate, be carefull, I am not used to that! ;)


    I'd like to add on our EQ discussion, graphic/studio EQ stomp A vs. EQ in tone stack vs. EQ after amp. And all of those versus Definition Parameter


    EQing PRE distortion (either the amp or a distortion pedal) does make a big difference. Distortion will add harmonics. You cannot get rid of them later. If you pre-EQ a big low end Humbucker before that bass content created odd harmonics during distortion can give a great definition or cut to your sound. The definition of the amp is fantastic! But in that case it is coming too late, damage has already been done. The EQ after the amp can just give the final touch for perfection. (What the producer/sound engineer would do anyway, no matter how much you blame him for him *killing* your perfect sound! :P )


    The modern guitarist fellow player with common sense intuitivley would just chose the proper guitar with the proper PU to solve that problem and get the *right* sound. But when I started with guitar, things were different. My first real guitar was a Fender Stratocaster - US-built, there were no such Mexican or Asian strats. It costed me 5 times my monthly salary - and this was second hand!


    A decent and playable Squier strat nowadays is about what I pay for a good dinner. So lot of this "ancient knowledge" might look funny today - and in many cases is not needed anymore. There are exceptions, though.

    Ne travaillez jamais.

  • Thanks Spinner for sharing.


    You know I thought I read somewhere about 6 months ago that it was either possible to move the EQ stack to be pre-amplifier or that there was a page on which a different EQ set, just like the stack one, was available. I got super-excited 'cause IMHO this would've been so much more practical and easy to use than an EQ in a stomp slot before the amp, which I never do 'cause it's just too fiddly for me. I saw so many possibilities I think I might've even dreamed (in my sleep) about what I'd like to try.


    A few days later I got the chance to fire up the Kemper, and to my dismay, I couldn't find any such page or set of knob-driven EQ controls like we have in the stack. I'm still feeling the disappointment, 'cause I feel that a set, controlled by the same EQ knobs we use for the stack EQ, that acts before the amp would be absolutely huge in terms of what it would offer us. That would be super-quick, powerful tone-shaping right there IMHO, brother.


    I wonder if I should put in a feature request for this... unless, of course, the option is there but I just can't find it. IMHO, in this age of digital, an exact copy of the stack EQ, perhaps even one where we can adjust the focal frequencies for each knob (like a semi-parametric), should be available as the first stage in the amp, just prior to the gain knob. It should simply be a matter of paging left to a new first parameter page (before Definition etc.) after holding the amp button.


    Whaddaya reckon, maaaate?

  • +1


    Did never stumble about that option to move the stack EQ either...


    The graphic EQ is not that far from what you wished, though. 4 knobs for 4 frequencies and on page two the next 4. The display is plotting the frequence curve as youd expect from a physical graphic EQ.Not as precise or versatile as with separate Q- and frequency dials. But intuitive and simple, just like the real-world thing.

    Ne travaillez jamais.

  • Yeah, but I like the standard stack-EQ methodology.


    For me, the most intuitive (I don't like to think too much with music) method is the old-school, front-of-the-amp configuration of knobs and functionality. I might've got a little carried away with the possibility of changing the centre / cutoff / focus frequencies; I'd surely be happy with just another copy of the standard stack EQ we have, but placed before the amp.


    Glad you like the idea, Spinner. Take care bro'.