A big profiles theft!

    Yes, I remember that movie... The whole thing is this, tech moves fast, laws move slow. That is because people are in whirl and not sure what to make of future events. I personally think it is the end of amps almost completely, which is like the end of pro musicians because the internet killed their jobs. Who knows, I just see a lot of grumbling everywhere, once it bites deep, then we will see what happens. Until then, the return policy is awesome on amps!

    Quote from Dean_R

    I personally think the issue is materiality and not necessarily whether they have a case or they don't. If Kemper Amp sales becomes somewhere near a quantifiable percentage of Fender or Marshall amps I can't imagine them just watching KPA taking market shares. The way things work now, KPA is almost an advertisement to tube amp rather than a threat. Many music stores don not even have a single KPA on hand, Kemper is as boutique as you can get,At the current state of units sold. If for whatever reason Marshall or Fender even contemplate taking legal action against Kemper, it would a huge favorable advertisement for KPA and will do the opposite but again, I think the issue is materiality and not a legal issue.


    From what I know of companies, they don't wait for things to become a threat or bite into sales before they take legal action. It seems highly likely that they don't have a case at this juncture.


    For example, I seem to recall that Michael Wagner was warned against using certain amps/naming schemes when he was releasing his free rig pack. That kind of underlines that the manufacturers are aware of the product at least.

    There doesn't seem to be any grounds for claiming that profiling is theft any more than claiming that making a recording of a Marshall amp is theft, or even a modeler seeking to replicate a particular amp model digitally.


    One interesting thing to muse on is Lee Anderton being asked about the Kemper in an interview... He said while they are massively profitable to sell, he does wonder if there is an ethical dilemma. Amp manufacturers spend tremendous resources developing their products, but if they don't sell because a few people bought one and profiled it, then there isn't much incentive to make amps any longer. People will simply use a Kemper as opposed to their real amps.


    A couple things to note about this argument, as well:


    Firstly, I don't think people will stop buying real amps. The market may have changed, but markets always change with new and innovative products, and the old guard will always rail against it initially because it trespasses on their model. There will still always be a demand for real tube amps; the historicity, the warmth, the tradition. The market will just be smaller. You could also see a trend where sales dip before a wave of interest revitalizes the demand, much like younger people buying droves of vinyl records.


    Secondly, Christoph Kemper's expressed intention was to create a device that would capture the tone of your amp when at an optimal setting so you can always have that tone. This would also assist when recording and playing live with the easily transportable toaster. But inevitably not everyone who bought a Kemper had amps to profile or much interest in it once others started using advanced equipment to profile an endless array of amps and tones. Why profile your own amp when you can pay a few bucks for one that will probably sound better than anything you'd be capable of doing? It's turned the Kemper for most people into storage for other profiles as opposed to a "personal profiler". It was inevitable, especially since Kemper allowed easy tone sharing through the Rig Exchange and their forum.


    So, I do see where Lee is coming from, and a decent part of it is his emotional attitude towards valve technology. It's one he even admits to in the Kemper comparison videos they posted. Is there an ethical issue that will change how amp companies operate due to declining sales? In some ways yes, in some ways no. There's no sense in being an old stick in the mud who impulsively opposes any kind of new innovation; change is inevitable.


    If there's any saving grace for the purists, it's that the Kemper has a difficult time with certain tones and amps. Not being able to perfectly capture everything means you can't entirely replace what is being profiled. There's no beating the ease a Kemper affords compared to a traditional tube amp, but no profile can truly replace the visceral experience of pushing air the old fashioned way.


    But hell, the oldest human characteristic is to emulate, steal, and plagiarize. How many musicians and composers have admitted making their living shamelessly ripping off something they loved?


    "Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." -Igor Stravinsky

    Quote from nightlight

    I loved the lecture on the ethicality/legality of the Kemper from someone who buys amps to return them. Priceless!

    Um nightlight? That was a joke. DUH-OH! I am not buying amps for profiles. Good call rube, haha... ;) Although I did see others on another forum speak of it happening.

    Quote from MementoMori

    One interesting thing to muse on is Lee Anderton being asked about the Kemper in an interview... He said while they are massively profitable to sell, he does wonder if there is an ethical dilemma.

    Interesting too that he didn't say this about FAS and L6 et al, MM; speaks volumes, IMHO! :D

    Quote from Nemo13

    Um nightlight? That was a joke. DUH-OH! I am not buying amps for profiles. Good call rube, haha... ;) Although I did see others on another forum speak of it happening.


    Oh, pardon me for not second-guessing the import of what you said in two separate posts. Your sentence structuring comes off a little ragged, as I recall, even Sam commented on this, so I assumed it was legit.


    But my mistake, I'll be sure not to take anything you say too seriously :)

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Interesting too that he didn't say this about FAS and L6 et al, MM; speaks volumes, IMHO! :D


    I think L6 and FAS have a very different approach where they attempt to "model" a circuit. The Profiler is definitely more accurate when cloning an amp at a fixed sound, so I'm not surprised he would single out the Profiler, which does a better job than the others when it comes to "authentic amp tone".


    There's also the fact that the Kemper does not profile "accurately", as proven by a lot of EQ curves posted by people. Perhaps it sounds better, perhaps it sounds worse, perhaps it sounds exactly the same with some tweaking....


    But if I had the option to pick an amp of my choice, which suited my music, and I had the skills and space to record one, I would definitely prefer it over the Profiler.


    Because the Profiler is an imitation, not the real thing. Of course, it is much easier to record and audition tones. But if you can find a great amp that suits the sounds for your band and you can play at home without irritating neighbours, and find a great studio that will help record your songs.... I think it's no contest.


    By that I mean, the Kemper tone is great! And the convenience is unbeatable. But the original amp tone is greater, imho. Just basing that on clips and other discussions on this forum and elsewhere.

    Quote from nightlight

    I think L6 and FAS have a very different approach where they attempt to "model" a circuit. The Profiler is definitely more accurate when cloning an amp at a fixed sound, so I'm not surprised he would single out the Profiler, which does a better job than the others when it comes to "authentic amp tone".

    Them there're the volumes I spoke of, AJ. ;)

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Interesting too that he didn't say this about FAS and L6 et al, MM; speaks volumes, IMHO! :D

    He did address that in the same interview saying that modeling is a bit different in his eyes because you are building that tone from scratch. Modelers are seeking to recreate a tone based on their own methods as opposed to the Kemper plugging in directly to the source and "stealing" the tone.

    ... based on it's own methods of modelling.


    Still, I get the point, but can't help but feel it's splitting hairs in an effort to single out the Kemper for a reason other than the fact that it's in a league of its own. Retailers kinda have to do this IMHO.


    I mean, let's face it, the Line 6s of this world have the amps they're modelling right there on the test benches; they've admitted as much to me. The fact that the Kemper doesn't require the dismantling of the amps and modelling of every component ad nauseam is an incredible triumph of lateral thinking and coding on Christoph and the team's part, IMHO, but let's not forget the fact that it's simply an infinitely-more-efficient method of modelling.


    If the Captain admitted the unit was in a league of its own and untouchable by the competition, his sales of L6 and the like would be adversely-affected 'cause not everyone can afford a Kemper, and many might choose to hold out until the technology : price ratio swings more in their favours.

    Both Fender Musical Instruments Corp. and Marshall Amplification plc are large companies that have global presence. They are large enough to have a team of lawyers and legal counsel, on staff or on retention.


    If either had any legal basis for filing suit, this would have already occurred, would be in process, and we would all have heard of any ongoing litigation. There is nothing because they have no legal basis with which to file a challenge.


    And it is not like Kemper GmbH is some shady Chinese company that is sheltered and protected by a government that makes things difficult for foreign companies to enforce their IP.

    I don't think he meant this as the Kemper is in a league of its own. The fact that you can put the Axe, Helix, BIAS, and Kemper into a mix and can't tell the difference says something. The Kemper is just seen as different because they don't do ground-up component modeling.


    Lee also didn't just single out the Kemper, he responded to a question from another retailer about to sell Kemper's about his experience, and no doubt a big part of that was the very comparison video they made. And I think the reason Lee feels there may be an ethical question is because instead of developing their own modeling, Kemper plugs directly into the resource amp to take the tone. It's not a standalone unit like an Axe or Helix, it requires a real amp to reference, which makes it feel like "stealing".

    Quote from Tritium

    Both Fender Musical Instruments Corp. and Marshall Amplification plc are large companies that have global presence. They are large enough to have a team of lawyers and legal counsel, on staff or on retention.


    If either had any legal basis for filing suit, this would have already occurred, would be in process, and we would all have heard of any ongoing litigation. There is nothing because they have no legal basis with which to file a challenge.


    And it is not like Kemper GmbH is some shady Chinese company that is sheltered and protected by a government that makes things difficult for foreign companies to enforce their IP.


    This is my reasoning too. Large companies are not shy of pursuing legal action, especially if it is a product that cuts into their business. They are likely to have already consulted lawyers about the Kemper.


    Quote from Dean_R

    As I said I don't know the law enough to even make a guess on whether they have a case or they don't but we have to presume that Amp makers have done some market research and studies to assess whether Kemper is truly taking sales away from Amp makers and whether the their loss in Sales due to Kemper is significant enough to justify the high cost of legal fees to fight.
    Regarding using the name, I bet it wasn't just a warning. It's completely understandable that Fender or Marshall won't allow anyone to use the trade name to make money unless they get paid and approve/endorse such product as the case with IKmultimedia where Fender endorses amplitube Fender. If Fender is to strike a deal with anyone making Kemper profiles I would imagine it has be Kemper himself because using their name/ website/ marketing will immediately expose the millions of guitar player who still don't know what the KPA is, and I'm sure they would want to get a share or a deal for additional sales


    . It's not always about theft and legal action, if either Fender or Marshall partners with Kemper, they both stand to make a lot of money but this might not make sense anyway as then it would really affect the sales of tube amps meanwhile , we, the few who know that KPA can easily replace tube amps whether you play live or recording, can keep brain storming the ethical dilemmas not knowing for sure whether Fender or Marshall have already consulted legal council, and to your point being correct, that they were told that they have no case.


    Basically a "cease and desist" letter from the amp makers. Pretty much a warning that a case will be filed for use of their trademark if you don't reconsider.


    I don't see the companies striking a deal with Kemper for the same reasons you outlined: it will be basically conceding that their amps can be replaced by a Kemper, which is a much cheaper solution to get access to thousands of amps.

    Quote from nightlight

    I don't see the companies striking a deal with Kemper for the same reasons you outlined: it will be basically conceding that their amps can be replaced by a Kemper, which is a much cheaper solution to get access to thousands of amps.

    There is at least one amp manufacturer that did this - victory amps teamed up with The Amp Factory.


    All this said, I don't think Kemper themselves are interested in making any profiles themselves beyond the initial factory content.