This can't be... what am I doing wrong?

    Quote from Dean_R

    That's the problem right there... :)

    Ugh, I need to get sleep after being up fighting this mess all night. Will back to this later today/tonight.


    If the noise gate knob is the issue, and it really matters for it to be turned down, is there a reason the KPA doesn't temporarily disable it for profiling? :huh:

    Don't play through both without someone else doing the switching, otherwise cognitive bias will kick in. Compare the sound in a sterile way, record a dry track to reamp and use that to compare. Record both re-amps, share them here.

    Antidotal story on checking parameters before judging success


    When I demoed my KPA powerhead at guitar center thru a guitar cab it didn't sound very good - pretty bad in fact. But I made a go of it anyway. When I got it home (it was the same unit I demoed on) turns out the staff didn't have the "Monitor Cab off" button ticked - so of course it sounded bad! That might or might not be your case but it was simple to "fix" after pawing thru the manual for 5 (frustrated) minutes.

    Thanks guys for all the constructive feedback so far.


    The input "clipping" I was referring to is when, and only when, I really chug some power cords on the E string, The input light sometimes turn red for split millisecond.- but don't notice any negative impact when playing normally. I didn't really study if it had any audible impact as there were bigger issues. I'll look into this further at some point but my inclination is this isn't a factor.


    As for having somebody else play when A/B comparing, that's not necessary at this stage. I WISH the result was so close that I had to worry about having somebody else play (or do a pre-recorded direct loop feed). LoL


    About the noise gate/effects reference in the profiling manual: Yeah I read all that, but thought it was likely referring to external stomp boxes, or alternately maybe the stomps in the KPA. Didn't occur to me to check the gate knob on the front. Again though, I find the reference text ambiguous and also perplexing the KPA wouldn't temporarily disable anything that may interfere during profiling.


    Okay, off to continue working on things now, will report back shortly....

    Ok, so I did another round of profiling & testing. I think the refining process may have been contributing to the congested bottom end. Not certain, but anyway I skipped that part for now.


    Got closer but it required messing with the definition and clarity settings quite a bit, otherwise it just wouldn't sound right. Having said that, it still isn't a match, still has the wrong kind of harmonic gain structure going on, at a minimum.


    The way I am A/B'ing things right now is to take a profile, then use that as the KPA reference when I go back into the Profile mode. This allows me to simply toggle between either that KPA profile and the amp. And this also allows me to edit the profile to try and tweak it to to match the amp. Problem is, I don't see how to edit a post-stack EQ without it impacting the amp reference. It seems that, by putting the Studio EQ into the X module (post stack effects) it then impacts both the profile AND the reference amp. Anybody know how to insert a post-stack EQ without it impacting the reference amp in Profile mode?


    This is nuts to have to tweak this much after running a profile. Without messing with the clarity and gain, the stack EQ, and a post EQ, the sounds wouldn't be nearly the same. Frankly at this point not sure how close I can even get them but am willing to keep working at it for now.


    * Update *


    Something just occurred to me....there may be an AD/DA conversion element involved. Would I be right to assume the reference amp is analog all the way while the profiled tone would have traveled AD to create the profile and then DA to get back into the headphones? That would mean I'm listening to a profile that has made a full AD/DA trip in comparison to the the signal path of a reference amp that is pure analog. If the converter logic in the KPA, especially the AD portion used in creating the profile, is not quality enough that could certainly explain a good deal of the "artificial" nature of what I'm hearing.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Something just occurred to me....there may be an AD/DA conversion element involved. Would I be right to assume the reference amp is analog all the way while the profiled tone would have traveled AD to create the profile and then DA to get back into the headphones? That would mean I'm listening to a profile that has made a full AD/DA trip in comparison to the the signal path of a reference amp that is pure analog. If the converter logic in the KPA, especially the AD portion used in creating the profile, is not quality enough that could certainly explain a good deal of the "artificial" nature of what I'm hearing.

    Nah... Conversion is definitely not the issue.


    What is the amp you're trying to profile?


    How high is gain and master volume, respectively, set at?

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Nah... Conversion is definitely not the issue.
    What is the amp you're trying to profile?


    How high is gain and master volume, respectively, set at?

    Gain 6, Master 7


    I finally did some recordings, just guitar only noodled up a rythm, royal PITA to get everything leveled out and tracked. Seriously I was scrambling all day to get all this gear out of storage and set up simply to reference this friggin' magic box. LoL I got the sound somewhat close between the KPA and amp, I'm just disappointed because I was expecting the KPA to not only duplicate the sound but me not have to spend a ridiculous amount of time tweaking to get it there. There is still a very distinct attributes, and stuffiness that is making the KPA sound not as organic/real. I could probably fight to dial it out with an EQ but then again I go back to what is the deal with all this post-profiling work being required?


    Tracks coming shortly...

    Indeed, which is why I assume Michael has asked you twice which amp it is.


    IIRC, some amps need to have the power-amp component (drive setting) dialled back for proper Profiling. The difference has been chalk and cheese for those who were previously-unaware of this requirement and went ahead anyway, realising awful results until better-informed.


    Quote from SonicExporer

    Something just occurred to me....there may be an AD/DA conversion element involved. Would I be right to assume the reference amp is analog all the way while the profiled tone would have traveled AD to create the profile and then DA to get back into the headphones? That would mean I'm listening to a profile that has made a full AD/DA trip in comparison to the the signal path of a reference amp that is pure analog. If the converter logic in the KPA, especially the AD portion used in creating the profile, is not quality enough that could certainly explain a good deal of the "artificial" nature of what I'm hearing.

    Don't worry about this, mate; not even Diamond Ears™ would detect a difference, especially on this sort of signal. The A/D and D/A conversion on this thing is superb to my ears; as transparent as one could hope for in this application.

    Ok, here's some raw clips. You'll be able to hear the difference on anything better than a radio earpiece. LoL But seriously, the KPA is sounding congested in comparison. This is the type of thing that makes the difference in a track sounding real vs. a modeler.


    Hand wired custom Baron micro amp. But I'm hearing this same kind of issue/vibe with the other profiles I tried, even good ones like Top Jimi, etc. Played next to a real guitar amp track it just becomes obvious.


    I'm praying you guys have some solution or identify something I'm doing wrong. The KPA is uber cool but it simply isn't sounding either accurate nor real to my ears. Damn close but not on the right side of the fence enough to be convincing. I could even tolerate slightly different if it sounded real but it keeps yielding the congestion (for lack of a better word). These are just stereo clips, imagine quad tracking - it will get even more pronounced.


    Sonic

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Funny you mention this because I just now realized the noise gate knob was active. I'm not sure if that counts the same as having a noise gate effect patched in or not. But the gate controlled by the knob was on. SO I will turn that off and try again. Also, I noticed I am occasionally clipping on input. First time I ever saw anything of the sort with this passive pickup guitar...Do I need to be trimming this somehow or is that still analog pathway at that point? (Scanned the manual and nothing leaped out about input clip leveling)
    Tried metalmike's suggestion and turned off PureCab, it helped some but then the overall character changed not in a good way. What DID actually seem to really help clean up the bottom was cranking up the Definition.


    Should I be having to make non-trivial alterations after the fact to try to match an amp I just profiled? Isn't the profiling process supposed to do this? Hence the name "profiling process"? :rolleyes:


    Pretty sure that's the reason for the funny behaviour.


    What amp are you trying to profile anyway, you never mentioned.


    Also: "Had to turn up the return input adjust on the KPA about +12db if that means anything."


    If you're doing that, your likely to get more gain in the signal, which is likely why it sounds buzzy like grunge.




    Quote from SonicExporer

    Hope this doesn't offend anybody, but the sum of what I've experienced tonally with the KPA in the last few weeks got me to thinking just now. I wonder if what has been typically portrayed as the KPA building an amp tone from scratch (using reference signals and studying the behavior of the amp) is not accurate. Maybe instead it is simply collecting extra data that is then applied to a vanilla baseline model. Maybe a clean model and distorted model depending on the case. This would explain a lot of what I'm hearing, and also explain the very small size of the profile files. Anyway, just a theory that crossed my mind. If correct the KPA would be better described as a self-adjusting modeler rather than a profiler.


    I am totally willing to accept the fault may be mine, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but at the moment nothing seems apparent...


    Sonic


    No offence taken, but based on the results of other profilers out here and discussions on the subject, I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. There's definitely user error going on here.