Help with my mix

    Quote from Netheravon

    Have you tried sending the bass through a separate bus with Overdrive on it? This can be nice as you can then blend in the two sounds, usually only a little of the od to add depth and grunt.


    It might not work on this track but could sound good.

    Yup, recorded a DI bass and ran that through a B7K Ultra. Really sounds good, probably mixed it too low.



    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Yes, and HPF that blended-in overdrive version so as not to risk any phase cancellation with the low end of the bass, which can thin it out / make it more light-weight.


    My MacCrap™ speaker's mono, AJ, so I'm reluctant to make a judgement on the panning, bud.
    I do believe that shortening 'verb tails for faster-paced programme material is the way to go. Don't be afraid to remove the tails altogether and use only the early-reflection component of the 'verb either.


    I HPFed and LPFed it as well, Nicky, something I read Andy Sneap does.


    I'll try to figure out how to shorten the reverb tail, thanks for the tip.

    Quote from schreckmusic

    I think it would help out greatly if you can post examples of mixes you like as a reference point.


    This is one song I can think of by Carcass. I have a lot of other metal albums I like, but this is one that's in the same tuning I use, so probably a good reference.


    External Content www.youtube.com
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.


    I'll point out that I didn't A/B my track against this song because I don't own it. Probably should buy the album so that I can do that.



    Quote from Lolly75

    Cool song! @nightlight


    As others have said, I'd work on the bass to achieve a fatter tone with the guitars. Drums need to be punchier: I'd try some eq and parallel compression on the shells.


    Keep up the good work!


    Thanks a lot, @Lolly75. That's good advice, I'll try and do that.



    Quote from schreckmusic

    Why not upload the stems to Dropbox and post the link here?


    Would be interesting to hear everyone's different versions. Great learning experience. I'm down, just to have fun with Sinmix. :thumbup:


    Hey man, I'm a bit hesitant to put up the stems and files on a public forum, because I've had bad experiences with infringement of intellectual output online. Since this is material I want to submit to a label, I'm also a bit leery of relinquishing creative control as well, just because of the rude things I might hear somewhere down the line if I do manage to get a foot in the door. This is the web after all, and there are all kinds of unscrupulous people on it.


    That's not in anyway a dig at the good people on this forum and my fears are most likely completely unfounded. But like I said, bad experiences in the past with people. Some of the songs that I have put up on streaming websites, for example, have been lifted and posted on other sites for download without my consent. Heck, even my stage name "Jimmy Rage" was stolen by some unscrupulous DJ.


    And while my small works might constitute a small thing into today's digital kleptocracy, it puts all my efforts to try and build any kind of web presence in doubt - for example, I lose out on hits on my web page. It's a small thing, sure, but more importantly, I wouldn't want my music to be used in ways I never intended.


    @shreckmusic I'd be more than happy to send the link to your email address in a group e-mail that I'll be sending out in a couple of days to everyone who so kindly said they'd show me a better way to mix. Just drop me a PM and I'll send the dropbox link to you in by Friday evening.



    AN UPDATE: I re-recorded the vocals this morning, they're much better now and have more clarity. I'm now trying (and I'll stress on the word 'trying') to record some good solos so that whatever I send to you will be the complete song and all associated stems. Thanks everyone for taking the time to help me out.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Hey, no worries bro'.
    The 'verb-tail length is usually labelled "Decay" in most plug-ins, be they algorithmic or convolution-based.


    In Logic, there's a verb that has a line graph as a graphical representation. That's the one I'm using. Probably not the best one for the job though.


    Another question: what tracks need reverb and which ones don't? Worrying I use too much reverb when it's not necessary, that probably contributes to the low end mud since I've never tried high passing it.

    Firstly, HPF it! Ballpark figure - 150-200Hz.


    Generally-speaking, the kick and bass can use only the tiniest about of a small-space 'verb, preferably only the early-reflection component. If it's not separable from the decay component (the diffuse tail), just shorten the decay itself down to, say, 2-300ms or even less.


    Guitars - enough to place them where I suggested earlier. Lead, a little less to bring it forward, but with delay which'll help it gel with the mix. Everyone knows delays sound great on leads, yeah?


    Vox - trickier, 'cause you don't want to push it back too far. I reckon a small room or small plate for this one, and again, mostly early reflections. Throw in a little delay to help it gel.


    Gotta run. Just a quickie.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Vox - trickier, 'cause you don't want to push it back too far. I reckon a small room or small plate for this one, and again, mostly early reflections. Throw in a little delay to help it gel.

    You could also consider a gate after the reverb. Set it to a level where it cuts the reverb tail quite early. When doing so you could use more reverb to thicken the vocals without pushing it back by the reverb tails...

    Ne travaillez jamais.

    Like 1
    Quote from SpinnerDeluxe

    You could also consider a gate after the reverb. Set it to a level where it cuts the reverb tail quite early. When doing so you could use more reverb to thicken the vocals without pushing it back by the reverb tails...

    In my experience it's more the early reflections that reveal the space's size and therefore push it back the more you crank the 'verb, Spinner. Not exclusively-so, but more-so, if you know what I mean.


    I'd be inclined to shorten the tail anyway to avoid mix clutter via the decay setting unless, of course, there's no other option (unlikely), in which case gating is all that remains. In passages where it's desirable to hear a tail, such as when the arrangement's sparse or nothing else is playing, automation can be used to mute the main 'verb and activate a copy of the same algorithm, but one where the tail's much-more evident. Alternatively, the decay setting could be automated.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    In my experience it's more the early reflections that reveal the space's size and therefore push it back the more you crank the 'verb, Spinner. Not exclusively-so, but more-so, if you know what I mean.

    +1.


    Quote from Monkey_Man

    I'd be inclined to shorten the tail anyway to avoid mix clutter via the decay setting unless, of course, there's no other option (unlikely), in which case gating is all that remains. In passages where it's desirable to hear a tail, such as when the arrangement's sparse or nothing else is playing, automation can be used to mute the main 'verb and activate a copy of the same algorithm, but one where the tail's much-more evident. Alternatively, the decay setting could be automated.

    I fully agree again with one minor exception: "there's no other option (unlikely)". If this is meant just for reverb, then IMHO its perfectly right. But if its meant in general to sweeten vocals without pushing them back in the mix then there is still a chance... :P


    I have to come back to what many on this board call "phase issues", as if its deadly poison. :D Historically this came from orchestra and jazz recordings. For the first its true until today. But not for many modern jazz sub-genres and not at all for pop or rock. Quite the opposite is true!


    What is *reverb* - technically?


    The early reflections are the direct echoes of walls. Delayed. And out of phase. And those are telling us much about the distance of the vocalist to us. The later, more taily sound is a massive numbers of echoes of echoes of echoes, including the walls further away and then bounced back echoes bouncing back. Just to be bounced back again. Again: massive numbers of delayed multi-path signals with different phases. This is telling us much about the size and structure of the room. Dull reflections mean softer walls, bright reflections mean tile, brick or concrete.


    So *the other option* is: For upfront into the face vocals do not use reverb to sweeten or fatten the vocals. Just split the signal into delay 1, delay 2 and direct (dry). Play with delay times (in the order of couple of ms, well below 60ms or so). This is introducing phase issues! 8o Just as any room does. Adjust the delay times until it sounds right. Its just the same as you would change the reverb from this to that until it sounds right. Its not science. Phase issues can wreck your sound. Or magically sweeten it. 8) Delays being so small will not act as Early Reflections and creating distance!


    To refine things: insert a micro pitch into each delay path. Insert EQ after micro pitch, to roll off treble and cleanup bass to taste. If the sound got better, but not strong enough, the add another delay path. Or why not 5 more others? ;)


    (Funny enough: this is again Phil Collins, but this time its his vocals and not the drums. He colaborated with Eventide, if I remeber correctly...)

    Ne travaillez jamais.

    Like 1
    Quote from SpinnerDeluxe

    I fully agree again with one minor exception: "there's no other option (unlikely)". If this is meant just for reverb, then IMHO its perfectly right. But if its meant in general to sweeten vocals without pushing them back in the mix then there is still a chance...

    Yep, meant for reverb tails only. If the plugin has no decay setting (unlikely), then gating is the only option.


    Quote from SpinnerDeluxe

    The early reflections are the direct echoes of walls. Delayed. And out of phase. And those are telling us much about the distance of the vocalist to us. The later, more taily sound is a massive numbers of echoes of echoes of echoes, including the walls further away and then bounced back echoes bouncing back. Just to be bounced back again. Again: massive numbers of delayed multi-path signals with different phases. This is telling us much about the size and structure of the room. Dull reflections mean softer walls, bright reflections mean tile, brick or concrete.

    Early reflections tell us more about room size and the location of the source.
    Decay tails tell us more about surface reflectivities and hence their qualities - carpet, cement, wood etc.


    There's an overlap between the two, obviously. Each tells us something about all qualities.


    Good stuff, Spinner. ;)

    @sinmix it's funny you brought that up, as I sent him a PM about the same issue. Not drums per say but old school mix vs modern mix. While I prefer old school metal mix, they will get lost on modern playback devices. Crappy IPod headphones, phones, tiny blue tooth speakers , etc..


    The example I used was Testament


    Old school mix

    External Content youtu.be
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.


    More modern mix

    External Content youtu.be
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.


    Although I prefer the old thrash sounding guitars, the newer mix sounds clearer on modern devices.

    And modern modern mix :D


    External Content www.youtube.com
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.


    TBH i prefer guitar sounds more in 2 examples you posted before :thumbup:


    And my old mix for friend band 8o More guitars from 3"36 hahaha :thumbup: Amp and cab used? Anyone :D


    External Content www.youtube.com
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.


    Stay Metal!

    Edited once, last by sinmix ().

    Like 2

    That Testament piece is very aarrghhhh solid. Thanks @sinmix for the link! I didn't know that 2 Death ex-members play there.