#13 Buy a real tube amp

  • Like many I have a great amp collection that's taken me years to build up. Heck even though I have my Kemper I still have a Kingsley amp on order and can't wait for it to turn up!


    The fact of the matter is that I have/buy these things because I am sentimentally attached to the whole idea. I love to get my BIAS checker out and make sure all is cooking - I still play around with the tubes and it gives me a great deal of satisfaction. I even built a Tweed Deluxe 5E3 amp this year and it was a great experience and sounds wonderful...


    Everyone should experience the trouser flapping joy of a Marshall or such like through a 4x12 with a LP - it's a visceral experience and if you've never played a tube amp loud you should - it's scary and wonderful at the same time!


    Thing is that I can't see my taking any of mine on the road again since the KPA came along... just no need to any more..


    Regards,


    Simon

  • The fallacy, in my mind of the above red part is that you NEED a tube amp to get and do all that. Point of fact, I can and DO do that with both my Axe and my Kemper. Nothing magical or extra the tube amp brings to that 'naked' equation that my Axe or Kemper can't.

  • The Blue part is legitimate. If you like that care and feeding, and collecting, then have at it. But, that isn't really what the OP of this thread was going on about. But, it's the analog version of tweaking models/presets, etc.


    But the red, again, I can get with both my Axe and Kemper. I can play them BOTH loud through a 4x12 if I want and get a visceral experience as well. An experience, that really isn't any different than the actual Marshall. HOWEVER, i can also do it with an Engl, a Friedman, a Dumble, etc. etc. via my Axe and Kemper.

  • This sort of ties into what I've long talked about:


    The guitar industry in many ways works against conventional ideas of marketing and business. One sometimes has to wonder why there is such a market to pay extra money to buy a 50's spec Les Paul or a 60's spec Stratocaster. Clearly there have been many advances to the design of a guitar, like doing away with a bulky or angular heel that allows easier access to the higher frets. And while there is a market for that, there's also a sizable part of the guitar community that doesn't want Gibson's new pro Les Paul, they want the LP with an inhibitive heel that makes your life difficult.


    Same goes with tube amps. They are heavy, unreliable, bulky, but their original, imperfect design is what so many crave and swear by. They want to fight their equipment in order to "earn" their place. It's why advances in solid state and digital emulation technology will never get a sizable part of the guitar market to embrace them, let alone even entertain the idea. Just go to any Kemper video on YouTube and you'll see a number of guys lecturing people about how it's not a real amp and they should feel some sort of shame, as if it's cheating. To them, there's a certain spiritual (and pride) component to the gear they are emotionally attached to.


    That being said, I think among younger players there is an embrace of innovation. Yet to this point it's interesting how guitarists romanticize over dated, cumbersome technologies and designs because they feel a purity about it. While nearly every other enterprise and technology tries to advance, the guitar industry tries to jockey new ideas with old ones that most of its players just aren't interested in letting go of.

  • @cybermgk


    Untill yet I have never used direct/merged-profiles with my 4x12 cabinets.Untill yet I am still on the studio-profiles train so what I hear is the miced tube amp and the cab choosen by the guys who did the profiles...all this through stage-/studio-monitors.


    This is ocourse a difference to standing next to the cab..no mics,nothing..just pure ampintheroom and the acoustics of the environment close to it.


    I had situations in small coffeehouses sitting on my 4x10 peavey classic getting the most unbelieveable harmonic and sweet as honey feedbacks with my ´77 Stratocaster which held on "forever" just controlling them by my vibrato and the slightest moves of my body..when I open up my legs the feedback was different than with closed legs.. :huh: ..actually sounds for which I am "ready to die" for..


    You cant do this with a miced amp/cab through monitors on a loud stage with some distance from your rig away.This has nothing to do with the capabilities of the Kemper.It is just physics.


    But it is just one example for the being very close to the "naked tube amp"/cab and doing "things" with it..and before you ask..no..I did NOT make sex with my amps. ;)

  • Yet to this point it's interesting how guitarists romanticize over dated, cumbersome technologies and designs because they feel a purity about it. While nearly every other enterprise and technology tries to advance, the guitar industry tries to jockey new ideas with old ones that most of its players just aren't interested in letting go of.

    Think again..


    Maybe it is the simple fact that untill now (better said 2012 when the KPA appeared) no modeller was up to the task plays a bigger role why digital tools have such little impact on guitar players;


    Actually the KPA has changed a lot.Now you see many,many big names and VIPs actually USING a digital tool on stage and in the studio.


    The Kemper sounds as good as the miced amp it takes the proile from.This is a big deal.A game changer.


    Sure the KPA can do the ampintheroom with some direct profile and a cab.So you have maybe one-two profiled amps which fit exactly to the 4x12 cab.Fine.But I guess this is not the reason why someone would buy a digital tool with all the capabilities of the Kemper.Using the profiler one wants the best possible sound of his various favourite amps through a frfr or studio monitor.For this nothing is better than the profiler.


    It still changes nothing from the fact that a good tube amp with the best fitting cab just standing next to you and your guitar is still a very,very nice thing..and it still sounds different which is logical because there is no mic,no extra cable,no pre and no mixing console.No reason to get upset about this.

  • there are a lot of users who never ever before have owned a tube amp ......

    This ;( Many of people know amp sounds from Ampsims etc... then expect same sound from Real Amps and miced cabs (after recording). Its not a "perfect" Ampsims world where every amp sounds totally diff and sweet at the same time - sorry :D IMO.


    Harley Benton cab + Bugera Amps + sm57 for Metal Tones (Killer price/sound) :thumbup:


    Stay Metal!

  • FWIW, you can use Studio profiles and disable the cab portion, use different cabs for that matter. Again, because you don't use a Kemper a certain way, doesn't mean it can't. You can get that 'amp in the room', 'acoustics of the environment' with a Kemper, or Axe, or Helix, etc, as well. Sorry, but you can, no different than that tube amp. HOWEVER, you can get that CAB 'experience AND also go FOH at the same time. .


    Because YOU choose to use the equipment that way. Sorry, but you CAN do that with a Kemper, if you so choose. I can even get it from my Kemper through my Matrix amp and into an Atomic CLR passive cab, let alone a guitar cab.

  • I think that's partly true. While the Kemper has certainly convinced some of those previously skeptical of digital emulation, there are plenty of old sticks in the mud that have already decided before they heard it that it will never stack up to their tube amps. And maybe it doesn't, but you see the passion and vitriol that this conversation inspires in people. "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT MY [insert product] IS NOT THE END ALL BE ALL OF EVERYTHING EVER!". Even some of the Kemper guys on this forum can get a bit riled at the suggestion that the KPA might not be perfect. We tend to emotionally invest in our equipment.


    I have to wonder if you were told you were playing a real tube amp through a real 4x12 in a room, if you'd have the same visceral experience, even if it was actually the Kemper. It's an emotional response built on expectations, hence why lots of effective advertising begins by blind-testing or even fooling a consumer. You hand someone Coke in a cup and tell them it's Pepsi, and hand them another cup of Coke from the same can and tell them it's Coke, they'll tell you how different each tasted. Our brains respond to suggestion and it makes you wonder what is objective and what is subjective.


  • Same goes with tube amps. They are heavy, unreliable, bulky, but their original, imperfect design is what so many crave and swear by. They want to fight their equipment in order to "earn" their place. It's why advances in solid state and digital emulation technology will never get a sizable part of the guitar market to embrace them, let alone even entertain the idea. Just go to any Kemper video on YouTube and you'll see a number of guys lecturing people about how it's not a real amp and they should feel some sort of shame, as if it's cheating. To them, there's a certain spiritual (and pride) component to the gear they are emotionally attached to.


    That being said, I think among younger players there is an embrace of innovation. Yet to this point it's interesting how guitarists romanticize over dated, cumbersome technologies and designs because they feel a purity about it. While nearly every other enterprise and technology tries to advance, the guitar industry tries to jockey new ideas with old ones that most of its players just aren't interested in letting go of.

    I'm in my 50s. If I can 'see the light....


    Frankly, the only thing that has kept 'digital' from taking over the market, has been the quality of the digital amps. It has NOT been very long that the digital amps had as good tone, response, feel as the conventional 'tube' amps. This is recent, relatively speaking. But, we have hit that point now. In fact, we are moving into the next phase, where we are starting to see almost that same quality at the lower price points. Helix has finally made Line 6 ready for prime time. Your seeing limited modelers in Katanas and Blues Cubes that are pro level quality.


    The snowball has been pushed down the mountain, and is only just starting to gain speed. It will only increase. As that quality gets better and better at lower price points, you WILL see digital become the dominant share of the market.


    It really is NO different than digital photography. You had people fight digital camera tech at first. But, as the tech got better and better, particularly at non pro price points, it took over. When was the last time you had film processed?

  • I think that's partly true. While the Kemper has certainly convinced some of those previously skeptical of digital emulation, there are plenty of old sticks in the mud that have already decided before they heard it that it will never stack up to their tube amps. And maybe it doesn't, but you see the passion and vitriol that this conversation inspires in people. "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT MY [insert product] IS NOT THE END ALL BE ALL OF EVERYTHING EVER!". Even some of the Kemper guys on this forum can get a bit riled at the suggestion that the KPA might not be perfect. We tend to emotionally invest in our equipment.
    I have to wonder if you were told you were playing a real tube amp through a real 4x12 in a room, if you'd have the same visceral experience, even if it was actually the Kemper. It's an emotional response built on expectations, hence why lots of effective advertising begins by blind-testing or even fooling a consumer. You hand someone Coke in a cup and tell them it's Pepsi, and hand them another cup of Coke from the same can and tell them it's Coke, they'll tell you how different each tasted. Our brains respond to suggestion and it makes you wonder what is objective and what is subjective.

    And Bingo was his name o.

  • @cybermgk


    You forget the cab-side of things.. ;)


    @MementoMori


    Maybe these "old sticks" are just happy with their sound;I think this is completely okay.Why should they even try something new;Theyare straight happy with what they have and use since many,many years.
    And some of theyse "old farts" still kick ass and sound amazingly good just with their one-channel tubecombo and one guitar..

  • Sorry, I don't follow your post.

  • @Armin, I do think you have a good point overall. If nothing else, I reckon the experience of the "alive" nature of a real tube amp (along with the heat, warming-up period, stale cigarettes and beer smells!) is something that every Kemperian should be able to enjoy at least once. If buying isn't an option, even the poorest of us could try to borrow or hire one.


    I was lucky enough to borrow a little Vox combo once, and boy, was it an eye-opener! In fact, I couldn't shake the memory of the tone and immediacy of its response, and that ultimately factored into my decision to leave L6 and embrace the Kemper. Not a decision I took lightly (Kemper = big money), but hey, when you combine the tough-to-get-cream, somewhat-scratchy and latent-response natures of the HD500 with that Vox experience, it was a no-brainer for sure!

  • Maybe these "old sticks" are just happy with their sound;I think this is completely okay.Why should they even try something new;Theyare straight happy with what they have and use since many,many years.
    And some of theyse "old farts" still kick ass and sound amazingly good just with their one-channel tubecombo and one guitar..

    I agree, and I'm happy to let them have their sound. I'm not out crusading and telling tube amp lovers to convert to digital technology. I was originally talking about not just their resistance to change, but how they also instigate a lot of shit talking online. Go to any Kemper comparison video, or even a Helix and Axe-FX and you're bound to see a handful of guys who came just to tell everyone that their amps and sounds are fake and will never match the almighty tube amp. They're not satisfied to just have their beloved setups; no, they must also tell you about your transgressions and pontificate their superiority.


    To the guy who just loves his old amps and is happy as a clam, I have zero problems with that. In fact, I'm happy for the guy.

  • The snowball has been pushed down the mountain, and is only just starting to gain speed. It will only increase. As that quality gets better and better at lower price points, you WILL see digital become the dominant share of the market.


    It really is NO different than digital photography. You had people fight digital camera tech at first. But, as the tech got better and better, particularly at non pro price points, it took over. When was the last time you had film processed?

    I agree to a point but the music industry works in some funny ways. For instance, who really wants a TV, radio, or toaster from the late 50's? Yet, a huge part of the guitar market is geared towards making releases with old specs or vintage equipment.


    So while I think you're right about digital taking a larger and larger portion of the share, quality going up and prices dropping, it's a funny little market.


    I found this video interesting when I watched it some time ago. The luthier explains why he still uses wood despite plenty more materials that would make for a more solid instrument that would not require constant upkeep, or as the questioner also posed: more resonant. The answer was basically an emotional one, that wood is both traditional and beautiful. In essence, my point is that much of the guitar industry isn't built on pragmatism.


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