Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

  • What do you mean by "gated" though?


    What does a noise gate do to sustain? It often truncates it. Compared to the amp, the palm mutes in the KPA samples I hear sound somewhat gated. The notes between palm mutes don't have the same sustain. It comes across as a much more controlled (tighter) palm mute. However, in reality, I think most people adjust their playing based on how an amp or profile responds. In my case, I tend to compensate for this by intentionally using a less controlled palm mute to achieve the effect I want. It's also worth mentioning that this effect can be exacerbated if you're actually using a noise gate, so turning it off may alleviate it.


    I don't hear the same frequency response.


    I wasn't saying the frequency response in this example is identical. I was saying that even in cases where two samples share an identical frequency response, the KPA sample would still be identifiable by the above mentioned (gated palm mute) effect.

  • What does a noise gate do to sustain? It often truncates it. Compared to the amp, the palm mutes in the KPA samples I hear sound somewhat gated. The notes between palm mutes don't have the same sustain. It comes across as a much more controlled (tighter) palm mute. However, in reality, I think most people adjust their playing based on how an amp or profile responds. In my case, I tend to compensate for this by intentionally using a less controlled palm mute to achieve the effect I want. It's also worth mentioning that this effect can be exacerbated if you're actually using a noise gate, so turning it off may alleviate it.


    I wasn't saying the frequency response in this example is identical. I was saying that even in cases where two samples share an identical frequency response, the KPA sample would still be identifiable by the above mentioned (gated palm mute) effect.

    Uhm, interesting analysis. That seems to be most often my issue with profiling amps, pretty much.

  • the guitar is a midrange instrument therefore a lack of mids (low mids) in profiles are a problem and a reason for a workaround
    and i think everyone agrees that it would be fine if the kemper fixed this internally ...


    And the argument of other people will not hear the difference is a such a bad argument... why would you bother the with buying a kemper, you could use a pod then too ... because when i was a kid all guitar sounds sounded almost the same for me ... the thing is
    I know how my amps sound and behave, and if i buy a highendproduct the should capture the sounds of these amps i want the feel of the amp ...


    i do not need a 100% copy but i need the essentials. and for me warmth/body, gainstructure, analog feel
    that's it ... and i have to say the helix delivers warmth and and even gain structure, the fuzzes are superb but has a bit more that digital feel ... The Kemper on the other hand delivers only in all these areas if:
    -the gain is not too high
    -there is not much bass in the profiled amp
    -normal overdrive/distortion (no fuzz)


    but since many especially vintage amps are creamy as hell

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    something like that will not sound accurate ... if someone can profile that sound i'll buy that person a beer


    the "body problem" though and the stiffer sound is a kemper thing

  • Spot on

  • Spot on

    Spot on

    Also if the power stage of the amp is not driven hard to the point of distortion. With bias FX you can adjust power amp distortion quite easily.. But with the kemper, if two sources distort, you usually have issues. My favorite tones from both my Orange and Laney amps are when the power stage is blasted to hell -- and there the kemper fails big time. Difference is just massive at that point. At lower volumes it gets close apart from the "lacking body", low notes too tight/boxy type of issue.

  • Good Lord, that Laney video has to be one of the most annoying promotion videos I've ever listened to. That clown in the background is spazzing all over the fretboard making noise while the narrator is trying to explain the product. :rolleyes:


    Back to the subject at hand though....


    While I agree the preamp vs. power stage distortion is an obstacle for the KPA, one that we may have to accept as a limitation, it is not the main contributor to the deficiency we are discussing.


    Unless the KPA algorithms somehow have hit a limitation of sorts, then I have to believe this issue we are discussing is fixable, or at least able to be noticeably improved. Either that or there may be some techniques & tweaks in the KPA we can be advised as to overcome things. (Although the latter is more of a band-aid as the KPA should ideally be able to address the issue itself)


    Mr. Kemper is obviously a very bright individual. I'm hopefully optimistic he can figure something out. I'd much rather see this core tonal issue dealt with before all kinds of other optional features like the plethora of delay effect enhancements just released. JMHO


    Sonic

  • :thumbup:

  • While I agree the preamp vs. power stage distortion is an obstacle for the KPA, one that we may have to accept as a limitation, it is not the main contributor to the deficiency we are discussing.

    In my opinion, that's a conclusion you don't have enough information to make.

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

  • In my opinion, that's a conclusion you don't have enough information to make.

    I think we do. A number of users have experienced and stated, myself included, that the issue exists even when an amp is set on low volumes. And some users have even profiled devices like POD"s, again myself included, and still encountered the same issue.


    That indicates the combination of preamp and output stage distortion is almost surely not the main contributor.

  • And the argument of other people will not hear the difference is a such a bad argument... why would you bother the with buying a kemper, you could use a pod then too ... because when i was a kid all guitar sounds sounded almost the same for me ...

    I wholeheartedly disagree because most people who are into modeling, and especially tube amp purists, can hear the difference between something like the original POD and a tube amp any day of the week, whereas a lot of modeling enthusiasts and many tube amp purists have a tough time distinguishing between the Kemper and real amp in a blind test. I've seen this time and again. The majority of amp modeling enthusiasts who make claims about being able to hear a difference often fail when confronted with a blind test. While I can hear the differences, I do recognize most people can't. I mean, I can hear a difference between the Helix amp models and the amps those models are based on, but the vast majority fail when taking the Helix Challenge, and you likely would too.


    since many especially vintage amps are creamy as hell

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    something like that will not sound accurate ... if someone can profile that sound i'll buy that person a beer

    This is strictly my opinion, but that is an awful tone and one I wouldn't want even if the Kemper could profile it with 100% accuracy.

  • I wanted to mess around with the German videos audio to see what the differences were. And one thing I noticed right away with Boogie vs Kemper is...... the Kempers inverted phase?? I am not familiar with Coles 4038 matched pair mics. Did they mistakenly leave this mic phase inverted when creating the profile?


    Top: Boogie
    Bottom: Kemper


    https://snag.gy/TMO9AQ.jpg *Edit-this is from the 3m45s section of the video.


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  • @ColdFrixion WTF ?? "While I can hear the differences, I do recognize most people can't" you like yourself and your opinion a lot right ? :D haha


    i mean you don't even profile amps and don't like vintage sounds and you don't care about the flaws that the kemper has so why do you even bother commenting here?
    i really don't get it. if you're happy with the kemper how it is why do you even care about people that want that the kemper also can do what they want :D do you
    get payed by kemper or what ? :D


    the helix challenge is really pretty hard ...
    one wrong on a clean channel ... wow

  • Here is a link to the audio from the youtube video if anyone wants to see. WTF is right @Bommel *edit nevermind you weren't responding to my comment


    3m45s section of the video


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/0krw…oogie%20Mark%20V.wav?dl=0

    aahh yeah i know that video... i think it shows perfecty one of the flaws

  • but as he sent the sinus signals through the kemper to check the harmonics maybe it would be a goot idea for refining ? hmmm has anybody tested this ?

  • @Bommel but their profile is inverted phase in the video? Look at my image above.


    Here is the image again https://snag.gy/TMO9AQ.jpg

    aaah yes it is! hmm interesting ...

  • @ColdFrixion WTF ?? "While I can hear the differences, I do recognize most people can't" you like yourself and your opinion a lot right ? :D haha


    What, exactly, are you insinuating? Are you suggesting that most people can tell the difference?


    [i mean you don't even profile amps and don't like vintage sounds and you don't care about the flaws that the kemper has so why do you even bother commenting here?


    Who said I don't care about the flaws? And how, pray tell, did you come to the conclusion that I don't like vintage sounds simply because I thought the tone in the video you posted sounds atrocious? I don't like Black Sabbath or the guitar tone on most of their albums, but how you came to the conclusion I don't like vintage tones based on that, I don't know. Further, what does profiling or not profiling amps have to do with being able to hear a difference... or anything at all?


    I'm simply making the observation that most modeling enthusiasts generally can't tell a difference. Is that relevant? Sure it is. Does it mean I think the KPA team shouldn't strive to improve the modeling? Of course not, but you're acting like the differences are huge. Yes, there are differences. Many people in this thread can hear them. I'm simply pointing out that we don't represent the vast majority of modeling enthusiasts.


    i really don't get it. if you're happy with the kemper how it is why do you even care about people that want that the kemper also can do what they want :D do you get payed by kemper or what ?


    That's as irrational a suggestion as asking if you work for Line6 or Fractal Audio because you're critiquing the Kemper's profiling capabilities. I mean, your comment is as silly as me suggesting that if you're not happy with the Kemper, then stick with tube amps. You're entitled to your opinion and free to express it here. That's what this forum is for. I'm simply trying to put the differences in perspective within the bigger picture. You don't have to agree, but don't act like I shouldn't be posting in this thread because I don't agree with everything you've said. If I were a hardcore Kemper fanboy or worked for Kemper, I wouldn't have bothered repeatedly talking about the differences in any real depth.



    the helix challenge is really pretty hard ...one wrong on a clean channel ... wow



  • oh man :D


    but congrats for being so good at the helix challenge... but i think people should try it, a friend of mine plays the helix and hmmm djenty tones and highgain was not really my cup of tea on the helix to a big party because the noise gate is not so good but that's another topic

  • Another blind test. Which one is which in a mix:


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