Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Super quick test. Which one is the real amp and which the kemper? Just doing some mutes.. wont point out where there changes are or how many there are.


    Can you hear what I've describing? Or do they sound pretty much the same? (recording through the Kemper A/B thingy -- didn't match volumes separately).


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    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Quote from Dimi84

    Super quick test. Which one is the real amp and which the kemper? Just doing some mutes.. wont point out where there changes are or how many there are.


    Can you hear what I've describing? Or do they sound pretty much the same? (recording through the Kemper A/B thingy -- didn't match volumes separately).


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    Aside from the visible difference between the two samples in SoundCloud, I hear a difference in frequency response and gating, but the gating doesn't seem as prominent in this comparison as the difference in frequency response, at least to my ears.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    I mixed up your sample, tried to level match and create a seamless segue between clips. In order to hide any visual aids, I've uploaded the sample to Soundclick.


    Listen to sample here

    Harder to tell when the sequence is made as seamless. There are no other mods other than that and level matching? I can tell what is the amp (I don't really remember where I recorded what to be honest, but can tell from the audio anyway), but it would be much harder now for others I believe to tell.

    Uhmmm... maaaaaaybe not much harder... not sure. Listened again on headphones. I am myself can still hear the difference quite clearly. But people not knowing where the tones change (before the changes between kemper and amp weren't as fluid) it must be harder still for others. May I ask, how do you personally @ColdFrixion go about doing level matching?

    Quote from Dimi84

    Uhmmm... maaaaaaybe not much harder... not sure. Listened again on headphones. I am myself can still hear the difference quite clearly. But people not knowing where the tones change (before the changes between kemper and amp weren't as fluid) it must be harder still for others. May I ask, how do you personally @ColdFrixion go about doing level matching?

    In this version, I moved some of the clips around so they're not in the same place. For level matching, I just listen and look at the meters. But yes, I can still hear a difference in parts though I think the segue between clips is pretty smooth which makes it a bit more challenging for me.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Didn't I read where you said that you dusted up your old Pod 1.0 and you thought it sounded better than the Kemper . :S:?:


    Why don't you just go and play that Pod instead of complaining about the Kemper every chance you get and forget about this forum.


    You don't have to worry, I'm sure someone else will fill the vacant position of "troll" as soon as you disappear.

    Just more misrepresentations and personal attacks. Yawn.

    Do all TS808/TS9s and their clones sound identical, do all JCM800s sound identical when recorded, how about identical cabinets with the same speakers, do they all sound identical when mic'd and recorded?


    So what's the point of this discussion?

    Well... the kemper is supposed to profile a particular JCM800, not one that sounds different. I don't think that's a very strong defense of the kemper.


    Just profiled a Thunderverb and got similar results to my soundcloud clip.


    As said my experience is that especially with hi gain tones the kemper has a tendency to be tighter and more congested. This may seem to be a negligible difference if you listen to clips where the playing does not emphasize the differences.. .


    But it's clearer and clearer when it does so. It's also made harder when audio transitions in comparison tests is fluid and random, not telling you where is what, but it's there nonetheless. If you think it's negligible, great, no issues.


    Yet in my case -even small differences in tone and response tend to translate to bigger differences in "feel". I think that partly explains why some tend to think that the "real amp feels better (even miced up) but yet the kemper sounds the same in a recording". It's not that the two sound exactly the same. It's just there are small tonal differences that do exist, but are often even not perceived as differences in "sound", precisely because of how small they are, resulting to this perception. Some even seem to prefer how the profile feels due to the small differences.


    I am ripping the kemper apart in the next profiling session, inserting EQs when refining and beforef, making it a sandwich, ect ect ect, do anything i can possibly imagine to bridge the gap when it comes to the differences that do bother me (tighter, more congested, blah blah).


    Yesterday in fact read some text by Wagener somewhere, a reply to someone, where he in fact mentioned that he some times needs to try and "fool" the KPA by using some kind of EQ into getting the tone just right, closer to the amp. i'm not sure how he does it... and he said that it's "too complicated to explain by text" but I'll see if I can figure out anything similar.

    Speaking of Kemper's EQ response, my limited experience is that Kemper quite ofter produces a bump above 100Hz and a dip from 90Hz downwards. That may be the reason Kemper sometimes sounds more "boxy" or "congested" or "smaller" than the original source. There are other differences too, but this phenomena is the most consistent in my, again limited, experience. Something like in this picture:

    Excuse my playing, which is inconsistent as fu here, making the test harder (hurt my hand big time... can't even).


    But here.. Same settings as before... But direct profile. Random changes between profile and amp. 8 changes.


    I'm using the same cab emulation (Revalver) in my daw.


    Interesting..


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    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    For me it's quite clear where the real amp is. I had someone cut this without me knowing where is what. What I've been describing is here, in the direct (cab emulation in post) profile too.


    So that may say something in regards to "micing technique", "user error", blah blah (pretty much the to-go defenses when differences are made apparent).. And "room ambiance" is probably not an issue now either.


    What is the case though is that @ColdFrixion is right about how difficult it is for others to tell what is the real amp and what isn't. It depends on 1) playing style 2) where the differences show 3) if you know where the changes take place... 4) how consistent the playing is -- running a DI is what one should do ideally.. The more you eliminate and the more fluent transitions are, not knowing where to focus to spot existing differences... the harder to hear the Kemper (or any other device or amp, for that matter).


    But it's quite possible... if you know what to look for, as some have mentioned :) "Kemperized" tones = more congested, tighter, with a slight difference in mid response.... the consistency of this across different amps seems enough to arrive at this conclusion. It's what Mr @sinmix has been saying for ever anyway.


    To also repeat what I've said many times before: small differences in tone result to bigger differences in feel. I think that's where the bigger issue is for me. Knowing my amps, I want a certain response: and slight changes throw me off, feeling as if the kemper is a different amp (which it is, obviously!).


    Anyway. The small differences that do exist I will try to bridge in next profiling session. I'll try to fool the KPA a bit :))

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 1
    Quote from Dimi84

    Yesterday in fact read some text by Wagener somewhere, a reply to someone, where he in fact mentioned that he some times needs to try and "fool" the KPA by using some kind of EQ into getting the tone just right, closer to the amp. i'm not sure how he does it... and he said that it's "too complicated to explain by text" but I'll see if I can figure out anything similar.

    Are you referring to this one? It has some useful info.


    "Profiling is a somewhat involved process and requires a lot of practice and trial and error. It took me a while to get the tones I wanted. I hear what you are saying about the sounds you posted and I agree. There are ways to improve that sound closer to the original, but it would be too much to explain for a written post without the unit at hand to demonstrate some possibilities."

    "For starters, try working with the tube sagging, the pick attack and clarity (I think that's what it's called, don't have the KPA here right now). When you refine the profile, you should play the opposite of what is missing (just for a few seconds and you will hear it changing while you are playing, don't refine for too long) For instance, if it's lacking bottom or low end, play some high sounding chords. Make sure that the chords are played with a hard attack on the right hand, so you get some good harmonics. What and how you play when you refine the profile makes a big difference in the outcome and requires some practice. Sometimes it even gets worse, but when done right it will improve the sound You can also use the EQ to "fool" the KPA into thinking it is producing too much bass (or high end), this is one of those things that I can't explain but would have to show you, because it is totally dependent on your actual sound and some other circumstances."

    "In any case it IS possible to get the sound right. I've recorded an amp to a track (Splawn), then profiled that amp into the KPA, then recorded the same DI track and punched it into the existing amp track. There was no difference, you could not tell which was which and it sounded like one continuous track."

    "Ever since we created the Rok Pak, which contains most if not all the amps at WireWorld, my amps have not been switched on and I have used only the KP for bass and guitar."

    Yes that's it I think. I couldn't find the link again, cool.

    I'd say none of the things mentioned has worked for me in regards to the issue at hand, and I'm not sure what he does with eq but have an idea.

    Quote from Dimi84

    Yes that's it I think. I couldn't find the link again, cool.

    I also found this post:


    "I re-amped a DI guitar track through my Splawn together with a Bogner module, via two 4x12 cabs with 3 different speakers and 4 different mics via the Chandler TG-2 mic pre and the Trident A-range mic pre, mixed together to one track by the CraneSong Spider, and the sound was killer. Recorded the live amp track into Nuendo, I then profiled that exact setup, straight out of the Spider and re-amped the same DI track through the Kemper profile of that setup and punched it in and out of the original amp track: I could not hear a difference, I could not tell where the amp track ended and the Kemper track started and vice versa. That is close enough for me. If I can not tell a difference with the track in solo, nobody will be able to hear a difference when I'm done with the mix!"


    "The secret is in getting a great profile and there are a bunch of things to be paid attention to, like the actual return level, the level going into the Kemper, refining the profile the correct way etc. If done right, I can not tell the profile from the original, if NOT done right, there will be a difference."