Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

Quote from MementoMori

A direct profile is just profiling the amp head without the cab. These are meant to be used with actual cabs or 3rd party IR's.

A studio profile is when you mic the cab during profiling and create a single profile of both. With this method the Kemper decides where the amp and cab separation is internally, which may be somewhat imperfect.

A merged profile is when you make a direct and an amp profile at the same time, then combine them. The reason for this is to have a clear separation between the amp and cab in the event you use either independent of the other. They sound basically identical.

Thanks for this brief breakdown, helpful.

Is it not true the concept of doing a direct profile is intrinsically problematic because it is still dependent on whatever load is used? It's not like the amp is going to sound better or consistent or more real simply because of it being a direct profile, the load is still going to matter, correct?

Quote from SonicExporer

Thanks for this brief breakdown, helpful.
Is it not true the concept of doing a direct profile is intrinsically problematic because it is still dependent on whatever load is used? It's not like the amp is going to sound better or consistent or more real simply because of it being a direct profile, the load is still going to matter, correct?

Yup - it is recommended to use the actual cab as a load, rather than a passive load such as found in some DI boxes.

Quote from Michael_dk

Yup - it is recommended to use the actual cab as a load, rather than a passive load such as found in some DI boxes.

Indeed, the "Kemper Profiling Guide" manual is very specific about this, and is an excellent resource. Unfortunately, many people are seemingly allergic to reading a manual. I guess I am just getting old and curmudgeonly.

...and GET OFF MY LAWN, you damn kids!

By the way, this is not directed at anybody specific, but is simply a general observation.

Quote from Dimi84

It'll matter and can affect how things sound -- but I've used cabs most of the time (as load) when direct profiling with no effect on the "congestion" issue. Same with just doing a direct profiling of the axe (which needs no load obviously). I've also tried the torpedo, same stuff.

I have tried the real cab, Torpedo and Suhr Reactive Load and the results regarding the congestion were the same.

Just to clarify and to update anybody new to this monstrously long thread....

There are at least two types of tone concerns identified during the discussions thus far:

1) A congestion / gain-structure issue
2) A frequency issue (sometimes also described as a depth issue as it pertains the lower end or lower-mids)

I suspect these are two different matters, the first one more impacting the "real vs. fabricated" perception of certain higher gain profiles, whereas the latter might be largely correctable with post tweaking.

Sonic

Quote from MementoMori

A direct profile is just profiling the amp head without the cab. These are meant to be used with actual cabs or 3rd party IR's.

A studio profile is when you mic the cab during profiling and create a single profile of both. With this method the Kemper decides where the amp and cab separation is internally, which may be somewhat imperfect.

A merged profile is when you make a direct and an amp profile at the same time, then combine them. The reason for this is to have a clear separation between the amp and cab in the event you use either independent of the other. They sound basically identical.

yeah I know the differences between them.

"The amp part of profiles for sure suffers from it. Direct profiles show this." I misunderstood here that by taking a studio profile you generally have a better result than taking direct profiles+cabs (merged) where you can obviously hear the degradation. It just made me wonder. nvm.

Quote from SonicExporer

Just to clarify and to update anybody new to this monstrously long thread....

There are at least two types of tone concerns identified during the discussions thus far:

1) A congestion / gain-structure issue
2) A frequency issue (sometimes also described as a depth issue as it pertains the lower end or lower-mids)

I suspect these are two different matters, the first one more impacting the "real vs. fabricated" perception of certain higher gain profiles, whereas the latter might be largely correctable with post tweaking.

Sonic

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O yeah and you forgot to mention another issue is that tube amps generally have a warm sound, but the profiles are either hotter and sometime could be colder depending on the humidity on the day the profile was taken, as we all know that humidity can affect the tube response and glow with a clearly discernible effect on tone. Hell... humidity even affects guitar tone because it has more effect on wood expanding and contracting and a mahogany neck might need a truss rod adjusted and then you can't tell how much your guitar tone has changed. Damn! Why have I been cursed with this acute sense of hearing, I'm really tired of being able to hear those Beatles fart in my back yard.

Quote from Dimi84

What I am going to do next is do a merged profile of my amp, then take a direct out from amp through the kemper, profiled cab simulation. At least it would show if the issue we are dealing for sure has to do with amp modelling and not cab modelling.

1. Direct Amp profile
2. Studio Profile
3. Merged Profile
4. Cab IR from setting 1 2 3
5. Real amp reamping,
6. preamp recording from real amp
7. whole chain from real amp + miced cab

Then:

1. Try Real amp preamp signal and Direct amp profile with same IR from point 4
2. Try convert IR from point 4 into kemper cab part and compare kemper di + converted cab IR vs real preamp + IR
3. few more things to compare

Question is: what is fucked up amp part or cab part? TBH compared real amp preamp signal vs profiled DI signal still not the same sound, but as always the key is a cab part so compared real amp + real cab vs direct amp profile + real cab = sounds very close but still not the same. If i see one more time "spot on"I kill You

Stay Metal!

I am far from any kind of profiling expert, but when I was trying to profile my POD I spent some time with the refining process trying to see if I could control how it behaved. I found by using two string chords and alternating slowly back and forth (about 1 second intervals) at two frets apart, I was able to influence the way the KPA refined the profile. If I wanted more high end I would play the chords on upper strings, if I wanted more bottom or midrange smoothed out I would play the chords on the lower strings. BTW, I never used the very lowest or highest outermost string. And do not pound on the strings for dynamics, instead keep them smooth. As I did this process I only concentrated on one aspect at a time, and then stopped the refining. Then I would repeat if I wanted to alter another register. Each cycle was short, only about 5-10 seconds maybe. I found if you perform a refining cycle for too long there was a risk you could potentially make things worse.

Anyway, this approach might be worth a try for some of you guys. You DO have to listen closely because some of the changes using this method were subtle, but definitely noticeable.

Sonic

Quote from Dimi84

Would be glad to hear if you'll have any positive results doing this. Adding more bass got me more bass in the profile, sure, but it's not the same compared to the settings of the amp I would originally have. I end up with a profile with more bass (at least some frequencies) while it still feels somewhat "congested". Perhaps being more accurate with frequencies during the EQ trickery could be of help.. But I wasn't able to do it properly, assuming it can even be done.

I haven't tried adding more low-end (or other frequencies) before profiling yet but when I do I think it'll be important to note how much is lacking so that I can add that much more back into the amp model prior to re-profiling.

Quote from Dimi84

My vst free amp sim also "spot on" if you put it through the right cab modelling...

Yes, the cab will have a massive effect on the sound, but I'd bet a free VST won't sound exactly like the KPA amp if you run them both through a KPA cab, though. Even the Helix and Axe FX amps don't sound exactly the same when using the same cab.

For what it's worth, here is a test that I did when Kemper released the firmware that gave us Merged profiles. There is no point in trying to guess which is which because I posted this back when I did it and I gave the answer. But here is what you will hear, not in the correct order though in case you do want to try and guess without looking up my original thread. I'm curious if you guys think that the original firmware is better or worse than the current firmware when it comes to Direct Amp and Merged profiles. Do you hear the same issues in this test?

Looper-->KPA (merged profile with cab disabled) -->QSC Power-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->KPA (full profile) -->DAW
Looper-->Amp-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->KPA (DI Profile) -->QSC Power-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->(new merged profile) -->DAW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gf1l…20KPA%20Firmware.wav?dl=0

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Quote from timowens

For what it's worth, here is a test that I did when Kemper released the firmware that gave us Merged profiles. There is no point in trying to guess which is which because I posted this back when I did it and I gave the answer. But here is what you will hear, not in the correct order though in case you do want to try and guess without looking up my original thread. I'm curious if you guys think that the original firmware is better or worse than the current firmware when it comes to Direct Amp and Merged profiles. Do you hear the same issues in this test?

Looper-->KPA (merged profile with cab disabled) -->QSC Power-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->KPA (full profile) -->DAW
Looper-->Amp-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->KPA (DI Profile) -->QSC Power-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->(new merged profile) -->DAW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gf1l…20KPA%20Firmware.wav?dl=0

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I'm not at my studio at the moment but using cheap headphones on a laptop I seem to notice some enhanced clarity/depth on last profile compared to the others. However this isn't the best sampling of clips for the issues being discussing because there's really not enough gain happening.

You touched upon a question that's been roving around in my mind for a while, that being have there been core sound improvements in OS v4 and/or V5, or rather is everything feature enhancements?

Sonic