Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

Quote from timowens

For what it's worth, here is a test that I did when Kemper released the firmware that gave us Merged profiles. There is no point in trying to guess which is which because I posted this back when I did it and I gave the answer. But here is what you will hear, not in the correct order though in case you do want to try and guess without looking up my original thread. I'm curious if you guys think that the original firmware is better or worse than the current firmware when it comes to Direct Amp and Merged profiles. Do you hear the same issues in this test?

Looper-->KPA (merged profile with cab disabled) -->QSC Power-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->KPA (full profile) -->DAW
Looper-->Amp-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->KPA (DI Profile) -->QSC Power-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->(new merged profile) -->DAW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gf1l…20KPA%20Firmware.wav?dl=0

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I can't hear big differences in the lows but IMO it's because mids are too pronounced.

Quote from Dimi84

Random but just amp matched some of my favorite Kemper profiles in Bias fx. Damn. Close. I mean really, really close. And then I did the opposite, profiled the amp matched tone from bias... and BOOM. Congestion. So I ended up with a tone that was very close to the original profile, but more 'congested', just the same as it happens with my amps. I do not have a second kemper to profile my own... but yea. Interesting, because, as said, the bias clone was damn close.

Could you do a recording of each of these three? May be slightly tricky to get everything gain staged correctly so one is not more distorted than the others - but I think it's worth it. You could even play with switching the polarity of the tracks to see what happens between each step (of course, time and gain alignment is crucial here).

I think such experimentation might be the best way is to call attention to any issues with the profiling technology that may be fixable in future firmwares (of course, a support ticket should be created for this).

Quote from Michael_dk

Could you do a recording of each of these three? May be slightly tricky to get everything gain staged correctly so one is not more distorted than the others - but I think it's worth it. You could even play with switching the polarity of the tracks to see what happens between each step (of course, time and gain alignment is crucial here).
I think such experimentation might be the best way is to call attention to any issues with the profiling technology that may be fixable in future firmwares (of course, a support ticket should be created for this).

like the ticket I created some months ago?

Quote from pacocito

like the ticket I created some months ago?

Possibly?

Quote from Dimi84

I should, but getting tired doing experiments showing the same issue over and over.. I think it has been demonstrated clearly by many users as of now.. not much feedback from kemper either, so it's not like I'm hoping for firmware updates

Understandable.
Be aware, however, that this forum is not the place for reporting bugs/deficiencies. Maybe you already have opened a support ticket earlier too, I don't know

I just think that the more people who do this, AND the more any deficiencies can be demonstrated, the higher likelihood that something will be done (if something CAN be done).

Quote from timowens

For what it's worth, here is a test that I did when Kemper released the firmware that gave us Merged profiles. There is no point in trying to guess which is which because I posted this back when I did it and I gave the answer. But here is what you will hear, not in the correct order though in case you do want to try and guess without looking up my original thread. I'm curious if you guys think that the original firmware is better or worse than the current firmware when it comes to Direct Amp and Merged profiles. Do you hear the same issues in this test?

Looper-->KPA (merged profile with cab disabled) -->QSC Power-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->KPA (full profile) -->DAW
Looper-->Amp-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->KPA (DI Profile) -->QSC Power-->Cab-->Mic’s-->Mixer-->DAW
Looper-->(new merged profile) -->DAW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gf1l…20KPA%20Firmware.wav?dl=0

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These sound pretty similar. The low-end issue is usually the easiest to spot when there are some palm muted low string riffs.

Quote from Michael_dk

Possibly?

Understandable.Be aware, however, that this forum is not the place for reporting bugs/deficiencies. Maybe you already have opened a support ticket earlier too, I don't know

I just think that the more people who do this, AND the more any deficiencies can be demonstrated, the higher likelihood that something will be done (if something CAN be done).

I too already created a ticket, ended up a pointless exercise.

Look, I caught royal hell after starting a thread when I first got the device because I could tell something did not sound real the very fist day I used it. I'm not talking about a perfect replication, I'm talking about just sounding real. And then I tried again very early in this thread to raise the concern and got hammered on again. IMO there is clearly an attempt to stifle people speaking the truth about what is a very real problem with the KPA in trying to replicate gainy tones. There is without a doubt a congestion going on, something is not right in the midrange / gain structure or something. It causes the end result to not sound like a real amp. Not just the reference amp, a real amp at all.

Kemper should be the ones to try and profile their own device so they can start narrowing down what is going on. The major points of confusion I have is wondering how it can be there are allegedly many thousands of these devices out there and yet maybe only a few dozen people seem to be reporting the same problem. So is this an isolated production run problem? Or a software issue? Or a hardware issue? Is it a limitation of the KPA Gen 1? In other words is this fixable? THESE are the questions we need answered so those of us experiencing problems don't keep wasting our time chasing ghosts.

MDK, you seem to be a well respected and visible member of the forum, maybe you can start a thread to obtain the names/number of members having this issue, collect the data and send it to Kemper so they will actually take it seriously and look into things. (If they already aren't) I don't know what else to suggest at this point, it seems kind almost futile having each of us individually trying to go at Kemper about this, especially when a number of us have already tried. To me this is a very important matter because we aren't talking about a minor bug or feature request, this is the core tone engine - the heart of the KPA, we are concerned with (as it pertains to higher gain tones). For those of us experiencing the issue it is making the difference between having the KPA be usable for the intended purpose or not. (Update - Wanted to clarify, once again, this issue is in context of higher gain tones, and IMO is most noticeable on Classic Metal style where the midrange has not been scooped out, the guitars not drop tuned, and bar chords are played with all three fingers and allowed to ring, not palm muted. No offense of course to anybody into music with those attributes)

Kind regards,

Sonic

Quote from SonicExporer

IMO there is clearly an attempt to stifle people speaking the truth about what is a very real problem with the KPA in trying to replicate gainy tones. There is without a doubt a congestion going on, something is not right in the midrange / gain structure or something. It causes the end result to not sound like a real amp. Not just the reference amp, a real amp at all.

If there was an attempt to stifle people from expressing negative opinions regarding the KPA's profiling abilities in general, this thread would've already been deleted.

As to your latter comments though, there are so many great high gain clips out there that I simply can't agree. I mean, it's one thing to say that the KPA has profiling deficiencies, but another to claim high gain profiles don't sound like a real amp at all.

@SonicExporer I have no problem with clarity. What guitar and monitors are you using. Also room placement of speakers is a big one, as is room treatment.

Is Pure Cab on? This has that effect to me.

Quote from ColdFrixion

If there was an attempt to stifle people from expressing negative opinions regarding the KPA's profiling abilities in general, this thread would've already been deleted.
As to your latter comments though, there are so many great high gain clips out there that I simply can't agree. I mean, it's one thing to say that the KPA has profiling deficiencies, but another to claim high gain profiles don't sound like a real amp at all.

I think you misinterpreted a bit and took my comments out of context, go back and read the original post. I don't feel the company is directly trying to stifle opinion, rather more a small group of disciples. There is clearly an minority element on the forum with a very heavy bias toward anybody who says anything negative about the KPA. This is also not unique to the KPA, Iwhen people spend thousands of dollars on gear, and it is as personal as tone, they can sometimes become overly attached and defensive.

The vast majority of higher gain tones and clips are being done by people who are drop tuning, palm muting and mid scooping. Any one of these aspects makes it more difficult to appreciate the issues that exist. And exist they most certainly do, I am far from the only person encountering them.

Quote from SonicExporer

I think you misinterpreted a bit and took my comments out of context, go back and read the original post. I don't feel the company is directly trying to stifle opinion, rather more a small group of disciples. There is clearly an minority element on the forum with a very heavy bias toward anybody who says anything negative about the KPA. This is also not unique to the KPA, Iwhen people spend thousands of dollars on gear, and it is as personal as tone, they can sometimes become overly attached and defensive.

There are always devotees of any product (or anything) that are passionate about it, but most of the time it's how opinions are expressed that draw attention. For example, there hasn't been much backlash in this thread.

Quote from SonicExporer

The vast majority of higher gain tones and clips are being done by people who are drop tuning, palm muting and mid scooping. Any one of these aspects makes it more difficult to appreciate the issues that exist. And exist they most certainly do, I am far from the only person encountering them.

Why aren't they present in Guido Bungenstock's clips? Why aren't they present in this clip?

The issue I have with some of the comments here is that they insinuate that high gain profiles on the KPA all sound bad.

This is simply not true IME (and many many others I might add).

It is equally not true that the Kemper team does not listen to us. I believe there have been more than enough firmware releases that had features directly addressed in this forum. Some of them were released within a couple of weeks from when they were asked for.

Having said all this, there are other solutions out there .... like a tube amp if the KPA isn't doing it for you.

Quote from ColdFrixion

Why aren't they present in Guido Bungenstock's clips? Why aren't they present in this clip?

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That clip is an another excellent example of an inadvertent misleading representation. It does not sound like the original and is buried in effects. It also has no reference. It has already been stated that when the KPA is used alone it can appear convincing. Put it next to the real thing though and it may well be a different story.

Duplicate this tone using the KPA and then get back with me.... (it was done with a JCM800 w/LesPaul and no production out of the ordinary)

Quote from SonicExporer

That clip is an another excellent example of an inadvertent misleading representation. It does not sound like the original and is buried in effects. It also has no reference. It has already been stated that when the KPA is used alone it can appear convincing. Put it next to the real thing though and it may well be a different story.

Considering there are currently no clips which replicate the original recording with 100% accuracy, your 2nd statement isn't especially meaningful. Further, if "something isn't right in the midrange / gain structure (or something) which causes the end result to not sound like a real amp" then you shouldn't need a reference sample to identify those issues.

Quote from SonicExporer

Duplicate this tone using the KPA and then get back with me....

You mean this, which sounds totally overcompressed and thin as hell in isolation:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p5iy…w9h43/RITD%20GTR.mp3?dl=0

Quote from ColdFrixion

Considering there are currently no clips which replicate the original recording with 100% accuracy, your 2nd statement isn't especially meaningful. Further, if "something isn't right in the midrange / gain structure (or something) which causes the end result to not sound like a real amp" then you shouldn't need a reference sample to identify those issues.

You mean this, which sounds totally overcompressed and thin as hell in isolation:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p5iy…w9h43/RITD%20GTR.mp3?dl=0

Regardless of your opinion of what you think the track sounds like in isolation, go ahead and achieve that tone with the KPA,and then get back with me. That track is known to be one of the monstrous sounds of the time so if you think that sounds thin then that in itself speaks volumes. I'm not wasting further energy debating with you, duplicate that tone with the KPA and then get back with me. I won't hold my breath.

Quote from SonicExporer

Regardless of your opinion of what you think the track sounds like in isolation, go ahead and achieve that tone with the KPA,and then get back with me. That track is known to be one of the monstrous sounds of the time so if you think that sounds thin then that in itself speaks volumes. I'm not wasting further energy debating with you, duplicate that tone with the KPA and then get back with me. I won't hold my breath.

Sonic,

Just curious...are there any commercial Kemper Profiles that you do like and enjoy, and feel are excellent reproductions of their equivalent reference tube amp?

Serious question.

Cheers,
John

Quote from SonicExporer

Regardless of your opinion of what you think the track sounds like in isolation, go ahead and achieve that tone with the KPA,and then get back with me. That track is known to be one of the monstrous sounds of the time so if you think that sounds thin then that in itself speaks volumes. I'm not wasting further energy debating with you, duplicate that tone with the KPA and then get back with me. I won't hold my breath.

Without the drums and bass, the guitars are thin, overcompressed and extremely congested. You holding them up in such high regard doesn't change that fact. Yes, they sound great in the track and I've always loved that song, but the tone people associate with the guitars is primarily a combination of the bass, drums and guitar together. On their own, the guitars are nothing to write home about. Would I want to duplicate them? No. I mean, you need that bass and drum mix to make them sound like they do on Rainbow In The Dark. Those guitars certainly couldn't stand on their own in a mix.

Quote from ColdFrixion

Without the drums and bass, the guitars are thin, overcompressed and extremely congested. You holding them up in such high regard doesn't change that fact. Yes, they sound great in the track and I've always loved that song, but the tone people associate with the guitars is primarily a combination of the bass, drums and guitar together. On their own, the guitars are nothing to write home about. Would I want to duplicate them? No. I mean, you need that bass and drum mix to make them sound like they do on Rainbow In The Dark. Those guitars certainly couldn't stand on their own in a mix.

You may not want to duplicate the tracks because IMO you simply can't with the KPA. And they are hardly congested, what you are likely hearing is multiple layers. And believe me, that track is as clear as a bell when held up against anything coming out of the KPA. Go ahead and try it. Import the track into your DAW and try to find something that comes close and sounds real. All you need to do is some layering and frequency shelving/carving. That will get you in the ball park structurally. Then you'll quickly learn first hand just how close the KPA cannot get to the realm of that kind of tone. Arguably not even real sounding in comparison.

Please, prove me wrong.