Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Quote from Tritium

    Never used an isolation box...but doesn't such a system, by design, pretty much eliminate the unique reverberation and complex reflections of a particular "room". I mean, isn't an iso box basically a miniature anechoic chamber?

    it removes the room reflections but not the "air movement" between mike and speaker.
    in fact its a "little room".
    its not perfect , but its a lot better than an emulator , IR´s etc.
    ive build an cheap iso-box but only to remove the room ambience from the mikes , and it sounded really good, but off course
    didnt resolve the volume issue.

    Quote from Tritium

    Hello Sonic,


    Even with Type 1, it is my understanding that the iso enclosure would still be heavily lined with acoustical foam, in order to mimic (as much as possible) a Free Field condition. Therefore, either way you slice it, and iso box is going to remove "room" reverb from the equation.

    Is there any room noise when you use an IR or do you add it back in via reverb?

    Just had a weird experience. I was profiling an orange (the amp). Per usual, congestion, compressed, tinier feeling profile than real amp.


    Refining guitar was a Stratocaster with a hotrails on the bridge and I tune it to C flat. It does mastodon doomy tones great. Because of the tuning and muddy pickup. Initially there was a big difference aa described above. When I refined with that guitar, things got a bit better... But not by much at all.


    It doesn't matter what I did. I tried every refining trick I could possibly thing of. So I thought: "Here we go again, the kemper tone -- your amp, but compressed, less low end, weird mids.. ".


    But then I redid the profile. Same result. Only this time I refined with a les paul tuned to drop D flat that has a quite traditional and treble heavy pickup.


    This time the profile got much closer after refining. So I thought... Ok maybe this pickup does not bring out the differences as much considering how different it sounds.


    So then I took the mastodon strat... still within the kemper reference A/B thingy... And to my surprise the profile tone was much closer to the real amp even with that guitar.


    You will always get a level of congestion/rapsiness/tightness so it's not like I got rid of it totally. BUT the profile was miles better than when refining with the mastodon guitar, even when using the finished profile with mastodon guitar itself.


    Lesson earned.... is that..


    1) Pickups can matter a great deal when it comes to refining. I suspect it's much more the pickups than the tuning because I've done tuning tricks before. By using a particular pickup during refining that works better with kemper (or the way the amp reacts to your pickup) you may be able to get better profiles even for pickups that are problematic during refining.

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 2

    And before someone accuses me of "spreading misinformation about kemper" -- this was my experience. In fact, I repeated it a second time just to make sure I am not crazy. Aaaaaand same result.


    It is difficult to know which variables make this possible. I do not claim that the same will happen with any amp, any power amp settings, any pickups. But I am pretty sure it can happen -- as it does with particular amp here, particular guitars and pickups tested.

    Many people say that the guitar you use to refine doesn't matter, but I have experienced the same as you.


    My profiles are always done refining with a Les Paul (standard tuning) because I'm convinced that I get better results for all the guitars by using the LP.

    Quote from pacocito

    Many people say that the guitar you use to refine doesn't matter, but I have experienced the same as you.


    My profiles are always done refining with a Les Paul (standard tuning) because I'm convinced that I get better results for all the guitars by using the LP.

    That's what kemper themselves said, that guitar/pickup does not matter one bit.

    Also I should emphasize that this did not get rid of congestion issue described in this thread. It just got better when refining with more traditional pickup compared to the hot rails, which has resulted in compressed mess. I don't think I've ever refined using the hot rails pickup before.


    So still the profile is quite different from real amp. Those experienced in metal type of riffing, especially pedal tone stuff -- I don't think you can be fooled by what is the profile or the real amp if you are tested in an A/B scenario.

    And to prove my point about the post above: that refining with certain pickups can produce profiles that get CLOSER (profile may still be tighter than amp but has more of the amp character imho) to amp tone even for pickups that do not work well during refining.


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    First is amp then kemper. Profile refined with hot rails pickup. Playing is with hot rails pickup guitar.


    Then is amp again -- and kemper. Profile refined with vintagy paff pickup. Playing is again with hot rails pickup guitar.


    You can also skip from the first kemper profile to the second.


    Can you hear the difference? It's not a small one. It may be considered "small" by some, but believe you me, it makes a very important difference in feel, let alone sound, especially if you play with balls.


    I also played the exact same stuff during refining both times and repeated this test, 3, 4 times by now.


    As said, not claiming this will totally get rid of "congestion" issues. But it does seem to make things quite a bit better, or can do so, if you have been profiling using a pickup that does not work well during refining your set up after profiling.


    The first profile has that weird thing going on in the mids and low end I disliked. Compressed and "hollow" for the lack of a better word. The second: tighter than amp, but does not suffer from the same level of "congestion".


    In other words, even if the second profile still sounds different from amp *tighter with more attack*, it does not bother me the same way the first does, which feels like poo poo.

    Edited 3 times, last by Dimi84 ().

    congestion, compressed, tinier .


    Does congestion mean nasal?


    Compressed: is this good compression or bad compression?


    Tinnier: does that mean the profiles now have a thin metallic unpleasant character?


    As of today, I still have the KPA and few other modelers and my experience is that this applies to other modelers (without naming them) have the above characteristic while the KPA profiles have the life like and sound and feel like the real amp. Compared to the real amp, again Kemper is the most accurate in all aspects by far.


    Wow, IF my kemper sounded like the above, I wouldn't keep it a day and I would feel guilty selling it.This is really weird how varying the perception of how some people can hear, but If KPA profiles sound Tinny, it's time to get hearing check or stop the lab analytical approach.

    Quote from Dean_R

    it's time to get hearing check

    This is what all the tube amp and guitar pickup companies I've worked for told me too. Because being analytical? Screw that, who cares.


    Not going to get into the whole "kemper religion" thing.


    For those interested... listen to the above test I posted. Refining with different pickups could help alter the profiles quite a bit and get close to the tone you are after -- or the tone of your amp for that matter.

    I agree. It's time to get hearing check because the issues are so evident to me that i'm sure you need it. No analytical approach has been done. It's just what we hear and I can hear it in many commercial profiles without hearing the real amp. And I'm not the only one.

    Quote from Dimi84

    For those interested... listen to the above test I posted. Refining with different pickups could help alter the profiles quite a bit and get close to the tone you are after -- or the tone of your amp for that matter.

    I can definitely hear a difference. I'd be interested in the following:


    Create and refine a profile using only the Strat.
    With the amp at the same settings, create and refine another profile using only the Les Paul.
    Create audio clips of both profiles being played exclusively with the Les Paul.
    Compare the differences.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    Create and refine a profile using only the Strat.
    With the amp at the same settings, create and refine another profile using only the Les Paul.
    Create audio clips of both profiles being played exclusively with the Les Paul.
    Compare the differences.

    I'll be on it later the coming week ;)

    Dimi, well done, thanks for sharing. That demonstrates the issue well. When you do the test again though, in the clips can you include a ringing chord at the end (same note is fine)? I think that will further help show the differences.


    Really glad to hear SOME kind of progress on this congestion/rasp issue. This is the kind of testing and experimenting that may eventually lead us to some kind of resolution for those people who are encountering issues with their particular KPA profiling efforts and/or tones.


    Sonic

    Quote from Dean_R

    If KPA profiles sound Tinny, it's time to get hearing check or stop the lab analytical approach.

    Thats not a cool thing to say to someone man. Maybe they are not able to articulate what they are hearing to where you understand it? Or maybe you cannot hear what they are talking about? Who knows? But saying such a thing just because you do not understand his point is not right. Personally, I have no more tests or a dog in this race though. Thanks to @mickrich I am extremely happy with the Kemper. All it took is someone making profiles that has the same taste in tones as me. Very excited to purchase his packs once they are released.

    Quote from schreckmusic

    Thats not a cool thing to say to someone man. Maybe they are not able to articulate what they are hearing to where you understand it? Or maybe you cannot hear what they are talking about? Who knows? But saying such a thing just because you do not understand his point is not right. Personally, I have no more tests or a dog in this race though. Thanks to @mickrich I am extremely happy with the Kemper. All it took is someone making profiles that has the same taste in tones as me. Very excited to purchase his packs once they are released.

    Yeah agreed 100%. Anyone on the forum who can't remain constructive and on topic needs to learn how to use the back button and move on.


    At the end of the day, the tone issues we've been discussing are about just two simple objectives:
    1) Figuring out if the issues are attributed to the KPA or rather the profiles, or both.
    2) Determining how we resolve the issues.


    Everything else is noise.

    Quote from pacocito

    I agree. It's time to get hearing check because the issues are so evident to me that i'm sure you need it.

    Everyone has agreed that if they can hear slight differences to the point of being negligible, it's almost always the case that these slight differences don't make the Kemper not enjoyable, musical or fun to play.


    I'm just pointing this out because if someone reads what's being said in this thread, they get the wrong idea., You're focusing on the slight differences that if we are to quantify even at 5% difference, they don't mean much for someone who wants to play and enjoy the sounds of tube amps that are plentiful in the Kemper.


    So I need a hearing check, but you guys need to stop exaggerating and need to go and enjoy the countless amazing profiles out there and not to take this stuff personal. We all are entitled to our opinions and my opinion is that there is too much exaggeration about the slight differences in this thread.


    thanks


    Dean

    Dean, I don't think people are going to get the wrong impressions when clips are constantly being provided. People can read and hear for themselves. For those that can't hear anything or don't think it's a big issue, they can conclude that on their own. But there are people who do think it's a rather big issue for their application, and when others chime in with nothing constructive all it does it add to further confusion, which only serves to prevent the KPA from evolving & improving.


    Sonic

    Quote from Dean_R

    So I need a hearing check, but you guys need to stop exaggerating and need to go and enjoy the countless amazing profiles out there and not to take this stuff personal. We all are entitled to our opinions and my opinion is that there is too much exaggeration about the slight differences in this thread.

    I don't need to do anything. Sorry.

    Just another profiling tip you may find useful btw, is to pay attention to the audio level being fed to kemper.


    I do not have recordings to show this, but have noticed it quite a few times. My gut feeling is if I proceed and record the differences that this will be verified. Maybe others have noticed the same too.


    Feed a very strong signal to kemper, just before clipping, and you are more likely to get a profile that feel congested, raspier. Off in some such way. We are talking about tone and these words are the ones I use to describe what I hear.


    But then do the opposite: send the weakest signal possible to the kemper (while profiling is still possible). Some of the issue seems to go away then. Not totally, but it's better. I have found this to be the case when profiling a few amps, I believe, unless it's some kind of bias on my part.


    Maybe I will do a test and record the difference, because if there is an important one, as I think there is/can be, it could be helpful to people knowing this.


    Cheerios

    Edited 2 times, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 2