I just think it's hard to thrust accusations of possible confirmation bias only when somebody disagrees with your viewpoint, especially in light of his fair and earnest approach. There's also a ton of rabidly pro-Kemper confirmation bias that appears here day in and day out, and I say that as a person who really likes the KPA.
Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV
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In regards to blind tests: I can construct blind tests where pickups are changing (even real amps, for that matter, in some cases) one after another, and few would even know there's a difference at all. If you start eliminating 1) were changes are made 2) include certain type of playing that is not very revealing, depending on what part of the signal chain we are talking about/product characteristics 3) not have a DI 4) have very smooth transitions and volumes matched, imho, it's rather easy for people to mix things up.
One of the goals of a blind test is to eliminate all other distinguishing factors that contribute to differences between two samples. What value is there in a blind test that doesn't? If differences are truly overt and obvious, smooth transitions and level matching shouldn't be an impediment to identifying a sample correctly. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't differences if one can't accurately identify two samples that have been level matched and transition smoothly. It simply means that the differences aren't exceedingly obvious, in my opinion. Nor does that apply exclusively to profiles, but to amps, pickups, etc.
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Sonic, with all due respect, I seem to remember a blind test of random A/B sound samples, put together by @ColdFrixion, in which you failed to accurately identify the KPA from the reference amp.
With regards to Dimi's most recent YouTube clip, I admit there were a few specific parts where I could hear a distinguishable difference...but IMHO this tends to be the exception to the rule, and may be a result of a less than ideal capture of the profile, and/or refinement process. Not to mention that, as well intentioned as Dimi may be, there is certainly the possibility of selective, confirmation bias. After all, Dimi is deliberately trying to showcase clips which highlight a perceptible difference between the KPA profile and it's associated reference amp.
While I applaud Dimi's efforts to bring Kemper's attention to what he perceives to be a deficiency, I just don't hear what he and a few others are reporting (the latest example, notwithstanding) ...at least in the majority of blind A/B tests i have heard. Nor, does it correspond to my personal experience when I profiled my own amp.
Cheers,
JohnI believe i can hear something similar to the problem areas of his clip in every profile i've played (distorted at least)...from Rig Exchange to the most respected Commercial Profilers. If people don't hear it in his clips than they will never hear it. Most commercial profiles i have though don't reveal these issues as much as the clip he just posted though or I would have returned my Kemper within the first month. I'm still hoping they continue to make the profiles more and more accurate so i defintely support this cause.
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One of the goals of a blind test is to eliminate all other distinguishing factors that contribute to differences between two samples. What value is there in a blind test that doesn't? If differences are truly overt and obvious, smooth transitions and level matching shouldn't be an impediment to identifying a sample correctly. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't differences if one can't accurately identify two samples that have been level matched and transition smoothly. It simply means that the differences aren't exceedingly obvious, in my opinion. Nor does that apply exclusively to profiles, but to amps, pickups, etc.
I do think there's value in these tests. I just wouldn't only do a test of this nature if I was developing, say, a guitar pickup. I would want there to be attention to where changes are, because as humans, we tend to pay more attention then, and can identify differences easier. And if these can be heard, even in a non-blind test, they may be important to the player. The audience may not care but the player is likely to do so.
I've had people, for example, not even be able to tell the difference in non-blind pickup test, let alone a blind one. But when they played the pickups in person the experience was quite different. Then whatever "small" differences existed mattered much more and they had strong opinions. This is why it's hard for me to recommend pickups or amps or anything without at least some direct experience. This is also why I don't think that, even if in a non-blind test it's hard to tell differences (let alone a blind test) say an axe fx truly replaces a kemper when it comes to feel/tone. And usually if you can hear something different.. it may matter one way or another, depending on the kind of difference, of course.
Also if I were to do such tests I'd try to include enough playing to test the pickup/amp/whatever comprehensibly enough. And if the playing is changing a lot, without enough repetition, no DI either, yeah -- of course other variables come into play that make it harder to hear differences. Suppose I play a high E note with amp, then a low E with profile. And then, when nobody can tell where is kemper and where is amp, I conclude that differences are not important (not saying your test was like this).
I will probably make such a super blind test when have time, will, energy but it wasn't what kemper themselves wanted now (I did some comparisons and sent). Just done one with different guitar amps against each other and I'm a bit scared to upload it because of how similar they sound (when they shouldn't!)
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I believe i can hear something similar to the problem areas of his clip in every profile i've played (distorted at least)...from Rig Exchange to the most respected Commercial Profilers. If people don't hear it in his clips than they will never hear it. Most commercial profiles i have though don't reveal these issues as much as the clip he just posted though or I would have returned my Kemper within the first month. I'm still hoping they continue to make the profiles more and more accurate so i defintely support this cause.
Lots of commercial guys have serious studio gear at their disposal, including some high end mics & mic pre's which make a big difference. Doesn't always mean the sound is necessarily "closer" to the source amp, but it could also make the profile overall more palatable. So long as it sounds good, I'm not worried about crystal clear accuracy myself. I've discovered how hard profiling must really be considering I've tried thousands of profiles and kept only 130, and even a bunch of those are close to the chopping block. This past week I went through all @djemasss Mesa profiles (which is like 600 profiles) and kept... one. Even that one is iffy.
Truth be told, I don't need any profile to sound 100% like the amp, just so long as it sounds good. I remember Keith Merrow talking about when he profiles an amp, he actually profiles on low-to-mid gain and then boosts the Kemper gain post-profiling. He knows this isn't "source-amp perfect", but his point is to make a good tone and even sometimes an interesting or unique tone. Given, that's not the use the Kemper markets itself with, as its promise to perfectly capture a source amp at a particular setting.
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One thing I have noticed is that I notice this metallic sound in the upper harmonics a lot more on longer scale guitars. My strat at 25-1/2" lends more to this than my Les Paul at 24-3/4". It's like the Kemper is adding bloom? To those higher harmonic overtones. This gives it a unwanted metallic raspiness.
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Bruh, WTF is a "SERIOUS" recording (purposes)? Asking for a friend,
Preesh -
I think it's also worth noting that - as far as I recall - the issues are more obvious in certain types of amp settings. These may not be the kind of tones that most people use, which could go some way to explain why there is a difference in perception.
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DI again, this time a "clean" profile (kemper sensing no distortion). The strings are older than Jesus on this guitar so couldn't play for **** but it shouldn't affect the comparison (no other guitar with me with single coils atm).
It's very close.
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One thing I have noticed is that I notice this metallic sound in the upper harmonics a lot more on longer scale guitars. My strat at 25-1/2" lends more to this than my Les Paul at 24-3/4". It's like the Kemper is adding bloom? To those higher harmonic overtones. This gives it a unwanted metallic raspiness.
Do you have an audio recording perhaps?
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One thing I have noticed is that I notice this metallic sound in the upper harmonics a lot more on longer scale guitars. My strat at 25-1/2" lends more to this than my Les Paul at 24-3/4". It's like the Kemper is adding bloom? To those higher harmonic overtones. This gives it a unwanted metallic raspiness.
This may be the drunk mosquito effect (fret buzz or spaceship or phasing). I mentioned recently. It also may be the very same thing that is mucking up the upper gain/harmonic structure making the distortion sound more un-natural. Could all be working together to create the rasp & congestion effect. It's hard to say. These tone issues we've been talking about the last six months could be separate or could all be related to a single issue in the way the KPA is replicating tone. Only Kemper has the answers.
Try this: Take that strat and find a profile where you can really hear well the sound you are referring to. Then go through the profile and try to see if there is a specific knob that will dial it out. In particular try the Definition knob. If you have that set higher than 9 try dialing it back a little, I found that helps quite a bit. If you find any other settings that may be a contributor please report back and share.
Sonic
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DI again, this time a "clean" profile (kemper sensing no distortion). The strings are older than Jesus on this guitar so couldn't play for **** but it shouldn't affect the comparison (no other guitar with me with single coils atm).
It's very close.
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One thing I just noticed....what is up with the S/N ratio in the KPA clips?? That's just crazy. I've been so focused on the tone elements I haven't really paid any attention to noise but as I listen to this clip it just smacks you in the face. Was there anything different going on with the recording of the KPA clips or is that just the end result of the way the KPA replicated the tone?
Sonic
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One thing I just noticed....what is up with the S/N ratio in the KPA clips?? That's just crazy. I've been so focused on the tone elements I haven't really paid any attention to noise but as I listen to this clip it just smacks you in the face. Was there anything different going on with the recording of the KPA clips or is that just the end result of the way the KPA replicated the tone?
Sonic
As said in the youtube description, there was this weird noise while in the A/B section. But when I went to browser mode it was gone. I have only noticed this when profiling clean tones at times. It was just too late to re-record everything, ect.
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I appreciate this level of critique of the KPA as long as it's civil and constructive, it can only make an already amazing box better.
Not trying to be a KPA cheerleader, but I'm just a bedroom musician. I run my KPA into a decent set of studio monitors and it's weird how my brain will get in the way of my ears. I can spend all nite trying to get that Keef or Gibbons or Mayer tone and when I get up the next day it sounds totally wrong.
I digress I don't know where I was going with this, but this box inspires me like no other modeler I've tried. However since I'm no pro I don't have the experience of being able to crank those tube amps as loud as they need to be to create those marvelous tones.
Jen
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I think it's also worth noting that - as far as I recall - the issues are more obvious in certain types of amp settings. These may not be the kind of tones that most people use, which could go some way to explain why there is a difference in perception
I'd say: if someone is interested in profiling amps, I can send him/her the DI I used for tubemeister and laney videos. Then it's easy to do a comparison similar to mine and see how close kemper gets with your tones. If it's closer then, there may be merit to this indeed.
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Hi!
I have just done a test with my Budda Super Drive. The issue is the same. In the part corresponding to the KPA there is less clarity. There is some kind of frequencies cancellation or phasing...
It's a DA profile done with the Kemper DI so you are listening both the real amp and the DA profile through the same miced cab.
Here is the audio: https://www.dropbox.com/s/asjs…aso/Test%20Budda.wav?dl=0
The effect is not so evident playing other things. The response to a Dsus2 chods is the worst case I found.
Saludos!
Paco -
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Hi!
I have just done a test with my Budda Super Drive. The issue is the same. In the part corresponding to the KPA there is less clarity. There is some kind of frequencies cancellation or phasing...
It's a DA profile done with the Kemper DI so you are listening both the real amp and the DA profile through the same miced cab.
Here is the audio: https://www.dropbox.com/s/asjs…aso/Test%20Budda.wav?dl=0
The effect is not so evident playing other things. The response to a Dsus2 chods is the worst case I found.
Saludos!
PacoIn the sample, the Kemper is first then the real amp?
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In the sample, the Kemper is first then the real amp?
Yes
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Just done profiling another tubemeister, through cab, similar differences. I also did a JCM which was closer. Very close -- the differences live in a similar spectrum but are less evident.
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Just done profiling another tubemeister, through cab, similar differences. I also did a JCM which was closer. Very close -- the differences live in a similar spectrum but are less evident.
I've heard the Kemper does Marshall's very well. It could possibly lend to the theory that the KPA uses a template or source tone that may very well be based on a Marshall and refines from there, so the further you trend from that tone, the more pronounced differences become.
