Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Quote from MementoMori

    I've heard the Kemper does Marshall's very well. It could possibly lend to the theory that the KPA uses a template or source tone that may very well be based on a Marshall and refines from there, so the further you trend from that tone, the more pronounced differences become.

    I think it depends on the Marshall. Some of the later JCM's maybe. I agree with the theory the KPA probably has templates it selects from and then applies EQ matching of sorts. If you know tube amp circuits then you are aware there are only a handful of different circuits out there that are all gain staged in different ways, combined with differing components (transformers, chokes, etc) and EQ frequencies, that all create different end results. Even circuit board layout impacts tone. I've read interviews where CK says he initially embarked down the path of modeling with intent to finally solve the digital modeler shortcomings but after a good while down that path he realized it would be too tedious to cover many amps. So my guess is he took that knowledge to create templates and then applied EQ matching of sorts (which under this theory is what the refining phase of profiling is likely based on). So yes, if this theory has any merit it is very possible the core templates are not always close enough to the amp to result in a proper duplicate profile. Then again, seeing as how the same issues (rasp/congestion) are surfacing across a variety of profiles (in varying degrees) I still lean more heavily toward there being something else going on in the core tone engine logic and/or hardware design.


    Sonic

    I agree that amps tend to be relatively similar, from fender bassman and on. What is/is not going on with kemper, how it works, I do not know.


    What I know is, doing a comparison between different profiles just now, I was surprised at how close I could get to some popular, commercial profiles just by dialing in my amp a bit similarly, even using only the built in cab emulation, then profiling that (edit: phrased wrong - - I had done the profile of amp today but before any comparison; comparison was made only with the profile of my amp). And that's a laney, the most convenient amp I have, hence the one that gets the most use -- but no super wow vintage plexi like the commercial profile.


    I would even say I made better ones than these commercial ones thereafter ("better" for me and my uses, mind you - - people have different needs and uses, of course; this is not to "ding" any commercial seller) by profiling the amp at more mix ready settings for a much more "cutting" tone. If a tone feels "smooth" to me through monitors here while playing guitar in isolation I know it will not work for my purpose. And also the commercial ones felt like they had more of the "wah wah" quality I tend to put much effort to avoid when profiling.


    Anyway. I do think the kemper, on some level, does tend to homogenize tones. But it's not like a lot of amp tones don't sound very similar to begin with. This is also why I think small differences between profile and amp can matter: we are dealing with relatively small differences to begin with from amp to amp. Of course it gets more complex when you factor in cabs, mics, ect, ect, but you get the point. Was just a surprising experience how close I could get with no "special" equipment.


    I will post updates if something comes out from kemper support about the open ticket.


    Cheerios :)

    Edited 3 times, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 2
    Quote from SonicExporer

    I think it depends on the Marshall. Some of the later JCM's maybe. I agree with the theory the KPA probably has templates it selects from and then applies EQ matching of sorts. If you know tube amp circuits then you are aware there are only a handful of different circuits out there that are all gain staged in different ways, combined with differing components (transformers, chokes, etc) and EQ frequencies, that all create different end results. Even circuit board layout impacts tone. I've read interviews where CK says he initially embarked down the path of modeling with intent to finally solve the digital modeler shortcomings but after a good while down that path he realized it would be too tedious to cover many amps. So my guess is he took that knowledge to create templates and then applied EQ matching of sorts (which under this theory is what the refining phase of profiling is likely based on). So yes, if this theory has any merit it is very possible the core templates are not always close enough to the amp to result in a proper duplicate profile. Then again, seeing as how the same issues (rasp/congestion) are surfacing across a variety of profiles (in varying degrees) I still lean more heavily toward there being something else going on in the core tone engine logic and/or hardware design.
    Sonic

    That was quite a modern JCM I think.


    I'd say the amps I have found most difficult to profile have been the ones that stray away from marshall type tones.


    Then again - - I have profiled an acoustic Sim and it was very very close to source. And that definitely doesn't sound like a marshall :)


    It's difficult to know how kpa works. If we have answer to that it will probably come 50 years later :)

    Has anyone thought about inviting Mr. Kemper to chime in on this thread, and provide some feedback and thoughts?


    Dimi ( @Dimi84 ), I nominate you for this mission, should you chose to accept it. :)


    This probably could be accomplished by simply invoking his username. Don't look at me, as I don't have any major complaints or concerns. :P;)



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    I just did a blind test, i tripped over both my kempers because of Beer!!
    I was blind!!! 8o:D I passed the test? i am blind!!
    Sorry guys please forgive me for OT.


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Like 2
    Quote from ashtweth

    I just did a blind test, i tripped over both my kempers because of Beer!!
    I was blind!!! 8o:D I passed the test? i am blind!!
    Sorry guys please forgive me for OT.


    Ash


    Forgiven, Ash...as long as you didn't spill any beer. :D



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    Quote from ColdFrixion

    To me, the lack of clarity sounds a bit like distortion. Did you try lowering the gain to clean it up?

    I tried and didn't succeed. I'll post a clip later.


    It's happening in every profile I do. Try some similar commercial profiles and play that Dsus2 and you will hear the same effect.

    Its just possible that the algorithm the Kemper uses isn't perfect, there could be slight flaws. We know from the patent that it's a frequency bookended waveshaper, if the waveshaper is bringing its own color into the mix with definition then the frequency modifiers may not be correctly compensating for this, hence the deviation. Of course it could be any number of other things too, even a limitation, but let's hope not and that it can be tracked and fixed, if nothing else so that this thread can die and we can go back to lusting after new reverbs.

    I used to want reverbs. But then slowly the desire died inside. Now I usually use no reverb at all :D


    I don't know about bringing in CK to the discussion, but my audio tracks, DIs, have been forwarded to software team.

    This is another idea, something you may want to experiment with btw.


    1) Profile your amp.


    2) Then record amp through A/B of kemper.


    3) Then apply whatever EQ you like in your DAW to try and minimize unwanted frequencies you see from the kemper profile.


    4) Then when refining run the EQ'd up signal through kemper.


    You may want to target very specific frequencies you want to eliminate that 1) are not possible to target by just changing the amp controls ("mids" on an amp are usually specific mid frequencies, right, marshall higher ends, orange lower) and 2) which are difficult to target with most hardware EQ units as well (unless some super wow unit).


    How well it works, well that depends. You need to be careful with the volume levels too.


    Cheerios

    Quote from pacocito

    I tried and didn't succeed. I'll post a clip later.
    It's happening in every profile I do. Try some similar commercial profiles and play that Dsus2 and you will hear the same effect.

    The lack of clarity sounds like distortion to me, too. Have you tried experimenting with the Tube Shape setting? According to the manual Tube Shape controls the character of the distortion.

    Edited once, last by ba_hill ().

    Quote from ba_hill

    The lack of clarity sounds like distortion to me, too. Have you tried experimenting with the Tube Shape setting? According to the manual Tube Shape controls the character of the distortion.


    The issue is only present in those frequencies, the rest is ok so anything you do, will affect to the low mids and lows which are already good.


    This is not an isolate issue. It's present in all the profiles I have done during the last 5 years: Cornford Harlequin, MPF Room One, Many FUCHS ODS profiles, Budda Super Drive, Bad Cat 2 Tone, Koch Pedaltone, Marshall JTM1 and some more.


    I'll post a recording using my FUCHS ODS and some commercial FUCHS ODS profiles at similar settings and you will hear the same issue.


    I think that there is some unwanted distortion there but IMO there is a cancellation problem as the volume falls a bit when playing those intervals while the rest of strings remain unchanged.

    I don't really hear the issues with Clean profiles, for me it's mostly marshall style amps with low to mid gain and most evident on open chords. I also think there is something weird about the decay of the distortion on low crunch tones, buti i haven't pinned that one down yet.

    No more testing for me. After 5 years and half, I'm selling it and going back to my three amps. It came back from Germany yesterday. Leds fixed.


    Maybe I'll come back in the future.


    Good luck!