Not possible with the KPA?

  • Guys,


    I've now spent a ludicrous amount of time experimenting and still cannot achieve the following type of classic 80's tone with the KPA for direct recording. Listen carefully to gain, the complex midrange and snarl.


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    This is a JCM800 with a LesPaul and a small boost on the front end, and the usual post studio mixing carving, there is nothing else out of the ordinary. I can essentially reproduce this using a real rig no problem (for decades now).


    PLEASE enlighten me as to any KPA settings, a profile, or something, that can reach this tone because as it stands right now I am concluding the KPA is entirely incapable of achieving this sound. My inclination is that, besides some possible logic shortfalls, it is likely due to the KPA's acknowledged limitation of not being able to profile/replicate both preamp and power stage distortion. Most everything I have tried thus far sounds fake having a strange gain structure compared to this clip's type of tone. Similar to gain elements I've heard out of digital modelers of the past.


    Advice welcome,, clips welcome. However this thread is not for a debate. If you disagree on what I said above then prove it by providing clips. As of this moment I am sadly and reluctantly convinced the KPA simply cannot get there.


    Respectfully,


    Sonic

  • Hmmm... sounds kinda Pregnant. I would start using unconventional methods similar to a metaphor about using things to make a podhd500 sound better. Comps in weird places, eq with odd settings etc.


    To me the clip has a "forced" sounding gain compression

  • The clip is "unavailable" for me, but I listened to my iTunes copy through my CrapMac™ speaker, and man, both the rhythm and lead are seriously-compressed.


    Honestly, you're a better man than I 'cause I can't discern natural envelopes (from the amp) through that heavy compression. Maybe it's 'cause the only copy I've got is the one on "Diamonds~The Best Of Dio", which AFAICR was remastered, and we all know what that means - a bunch of fancy squashing.

  • Could you kindly provide a clip of your reproduction with a real rig that the Kemper cannot profile? That would be interesting compared to the original.

    Interesting yes, however I'm not about to waste any more time on the KPA simply to for the purpose of demonstrating what I already know to be an issue. I'd have to drag rigs out storage and block up valuable studio time. That said, next time I am in the studio with the right rig, I'll try to remember to bring the KPA (assuming I still own one), make the necessary tweaks and drop a few tracks for comparison. I suspect however, based on the acknowledged limitation of simultaneous preamp and power stage distortion, that I won't be able to capture a profile with the KPA


    That said, there's others on the forum that have provided higher gain clips showing the real vs. KPA that aren't exactly matching. Not sure if that is what you meant by "cannot profile" though, or if you meant literally cannot profile well at all.


    Cheers,


    Sonic

  • I think the best way to get that tone is dial in a real amp, get close, and profile it. Most people doing profiles (in my opinion at least) don't do profiles that fit this kind of a mix. These simply aren't common tones these days. The other choice would be some kind of tone matching and then profiling that. I just wouldn't have high hopes not getting the congestion/tightness issue in both cases -- having profiled a heckload of amps, modeled, real, you name it, I just consider it a trait of the profiler by now.

  • But even the congestion issue being a real issue I think you get still get closer to this tone doing the amp dialing and profiling yourself than you can get by most people's profiles. I prefer my pod xt to most profiles out there.

  • Agreed Dimi84, I have landed at the same conclusion, although I still keep hoping maybe I can find a profile out there somewhere. I was totally not prepared to face the reality that I wasn't going to be able to just easily find an existing profile and instead may have to go off and spend tons of time in the studio profiling all my amps. I'm just not sure I want to go through all that trouble on top of all I've already gone through. My confidence in the KPA isn't exactly the greatest at the moment, just out of sheer frustration.


    Sonic

  • Agreed Dimi84, I have landed at the same conclusion, although I still keep hoping maybe I can find a profile out there somewhere. I was totally not prepared to face the reality that I wasn't going to be able to just easily find an existing profile and instead may have to go off and spend tons of time in the studio profiling all my amps. I'm just not sure I want to go through all that trouble on top of all I've already gone through. My confidence in the KPA isn't exactly the greatest at the moment, just out of sheer frustration.


    Sonic

    Understandable, Sonic, no doubt. But it may be unavoidable. If you still have hopes in getting the kemper to work for you (congestion issue or not) then I think the only way is to do the profiling work yourself unfortunately. It's the only way I have been able to use the unit to satisfaction (apart from congestion and the power stage thing). You'd go through a long, long process of profiling all your amps dialed in how you like them... But then at least there would be little doubt as to whether the kemper can do the tones you like. I wouldn't even use profiles from many so-called "top" metal producers.

  • PS: I am sure that even then some would tell you it's "user error", but whatever, they'd say that in every possible case (not referring to coldfusion).

  • Agreed Dimi84, I have landed at the same conclusion, although I still keep hoping maybe I can find a profile out there somewhere. I was totally not prepared to face the reality that I wasn't going to be able to just easily find an existing profile and instead may have to go off and spend tons of time in the studio profiling all my amps.


    If you have that tone handily available in one of your real amps, you can easily grab a quick profile to see if the KPA is in the ballpark. Honestly, I don't personally find the need to run through all kinds of expensive mic preamps and studio gear to get excellent sounding profiles. Play around with a couple of mic positions and spend the 15 minutes that takes and you'll have your answer.

  • Just a quick observation on the source tone: there's very little power stage distortion at play there. Also, tons of low cut and a generous amount of compression.

    You would be correct about the low cut (also some EQ carving) and compression, however there is definitely power stage distortion going on. In fact, I know exactly what output tubes were used, and they were specifically chosen for breakup.

  • less gain maybe? I don't know, the kpa is a weird thing. I've found some ways to make it "breathe" more? Not exactly like but similar too, finally hearing and feeling amp parameters like tube shape, bias, power sagging, character in the cab section , clarity and definition in conjuction with each other and all the different volumes( amp, volume, master). It took me longer to understand and actually hear/feel power sagging, tube shape and tube bias. But once I did, coupled with all usual stomp tweaks, I found quite few ways to make that splayed out tone breath all over, to me anyways.

  • If you have that tone handily available in one of your real amps, you can easily grab a quick profile to see if the KPA is in the ballpark. Honestly, I don't personally find the need to run through all kinds of expensive mic preamps and studio gear to get excellent sounding profiles. Play around with a couple of mic positions and spend the 15 minutes that takes and you'll have your answer.

    Yeah. Just try it at home and if you get close, think about going to a studio to make it better.
    If it doesn't work, move on to other equipment which can produce the sounds you like.

  • IIRC, Campbell's tone was a Boss SD-1 into a JCM800. That implies a lot of preamp gain, which you can clearly hear on that recording.

    That is basically correct. However that has nothing to do with whether or not there is power stage distortion. You can hear it all over that album, is has a very distinctive impact on the sound. It is actually on many metal albums back in that time period. You simply don't get that tone with a preamp alone. I know first hand Viv used early breakup GT's for that release.