After 3 days of constant reamping... UPDATE: getting solved!

    I haven't done as you describe, a proper test per se, but have tried profiling using a room mic. If I remember correct my issue with it was again quite similar to "normal" profiles. You loose reverb, but I'm not sure that's the problem with the tones here..

    @SonicExporer nope. its not a case of the profiles "ignoring" - its just the kemper does not allow it. the kemper captures the "room" or the cab portion similar to a IR, it will flatten the captured file removing the space before the sound starts, thus eliminating the ambience part. - the Kemper captures frequencies as thats its thing. - but it does not capture depth or air. as technically a "void" is not a frequency.


    We have captured a lot of these in our packs over time. but they dont offer the same result.. sure it gives you a different sound, but not the ambience sound when compared to the live room amp.


    I use room mics all the time, but not for the kemper. its all about substituting the close mics. this i where the kemper shines. (In fact no digital product can do "room" thing very well. memory and CPU to allow this will be high.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Is it possible that almost all profile makers are, as a rule, completely ignoring room mics during profiling? It sure seems that way. And that could be a big mistake. While the room effect may not nearly fully transpose, other aspects still would and that may be playing a factor in what is missing.


    Has anybody set up a rig in proper studio format, and compared a profile taken with and without the room/distant mics? To truly see how the final profile is being impacted WRT to the most natural result when compared to the reference amp?


    Sonic


    These are IRs from Rosen Digital, and from what I know, they always mic up 2 close mics, and 1 room mic.
    There's a huge difference between Bias Amp and Kemper.
    Bias Amp has the upper range that Kemper simply is missing


    Bias Amp vs Kemper A/B comparison (with identical Rosen Digital IR)

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    Bias Amp vs Kemper A/B comparison (with identical Rosen Digital IR)
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    Bias Amp vs Kemper A/B comparison (with identical Rosen Digital IR)
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    Yup, lack of highs is main problem, but a "certain lack of highs" , it's not fixable just by raising the EQ high up.



    Here's a A/B comparison with Bias Amp vs Kemper using the same IR on each.


    Kemper has a VERY telephone like sound, and Bias sounds more like one would expect... :/


    Bias Amp vs Kemper A/B comparison (with identical Rosen Digital IR)

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    Bias Amp vs Kemper A/B comparison (with identical Rosen Digital IR)
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    Bias Amp vs Kemper A/B comparison (with identical Rosen Digital IR)
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    I dont want the guitar to pushed back, that would just make it blurr into the mix. Which has been the problem all along these days. It just never stands out!
    The pick attack never really reaches out like it does on most albums I've compared too.


    And I've tried compressors, and today also that Izotope tape saturation but it doesn't sound good at all.


    The pick attack I want is simply missing, and I cannot find a profile that doesn't have a telephone like sound

    @Cederick but there is also a hugh difference in kemper vs bias, as as you know, the Kemper supports 2 formats, Studio profiles and DI profiles.


    Are those profiles you are using Studio or DI? - as if you turn the cab off on the kemper it wont be an accurate representation of the amp as some freq resonances still remain.. if using external IR's you must always use a DI profile. and FYI: an IR still wont be able to accurately capture a room mic unless its very high res.


    I think you need to work on production more, you have the tools to do the job your just not applying common rules to your recordings.


    What your trying to achieve is relative easy, Try the space, Try compression (but first read about what compression does) - try tape saturation, try harmonic filters try applying room ambience via a reverb plugin then compressing that to the guitar tone. etc etc. - most importantly try and find a capture of a speaker you like using a ribbon mic.


    All the recordings you have provided so far are using direct micing approaches. there is still too much proximity going on, if you move a mic further away )even a foot away) then the high will be attenuated more and the bass will roll off evenly. this way the highs will be present.


    And what i meant by pushed back more is the guitar is pushed back into the ambience more.. this is true of the original recordings you posted.

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Are those kemper profiles of the Bias amp plugin? Or are they completely unrelated?
    Also: How much have you tweaked the profiles?

    Unrelated, just similar type of amp (like one of them is JCM800 Bias vsKemper and one is 5150 Bias vs Kemper)
    But the point I'm trying to make is that the Kemper versions, have the same downfall as the others I compare to album guitars.
    Just look at the pictures in the OP how much high end they need to be boosted according to Ozone, and thats all of them.
    They all sound muddy in comparison


    Not much, maybe a little gain

    i tried to get some room sound , but didnt like it very much , sounded a bit muffled 8 but didnt wasted much time with it) , the chain:


    reamped guitar track through the KPA , KPA output to powered studio monitor and miked that with an condenser

    Studio, didn't think of that honestly. My bad :S


    Anyay, I tried your suggestion, and used kemper space, reverb, compression and almost all that you said.


    A: Iron Savior original song that I love the tone of
    B: Josh Middleton stock profile. They are said to be "mix ready" , featuring all kinds of EQs in the post section.
    C: Same profile, with various suggested processing...


    [Blocked Image: http://i67.tinypic.com/11a8ysn.jpg]


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    The more processing, the MUDDIER it gets :S
    I have a hard time beliving adding space and reverb is the best thing to make it tighter, which is what I'm after...
    Lowering gain just makes the sharp pick attack go away, and "pick" setting sounds too artificial.



    Well yeah, I know I'm not the best at recording and mixing, actually I kinda suck at it ||

    @Cederick you can profile a direct bias amp with kemper.


    Then record Both using the ir of your choice.


    For me the issue ("congestion) Still be there, more or less.


    But it's a good test if you wanna find out for sure if the issue you are struggling with is a kpa issue and the same as what others have been describing.


    Cheers

    Quote from MentaL

    cheers will post results later.

    Very appreciated :)



    Quote from Kosta

    i tried to get some room sound , but didnt like it very much , sounded a bit muffled 8 but didnt wasted much time with it) , the chain:


    reamped guitar track through the KPA , KPA output to powered studio monitor and miked that with an condenser

    Yeah, I have no idea what "space" and reverb would do to help the case.


    Just listen to this A/B/C comparison, the space and revebr makes things just worse. It doesn't help at all


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    If the kemper tone is close enough to bias (not for me and my profiling personally but may be for you) and this does better what you think lacks in other profiles..


    At least you have reason to Think the issue is not kpa in your case.

    I think I have tried profiling Bias before, but I dont have the result left.
    Neither do I have any of my other profiles with my 5150 or so...


    Do I need reamping box for that to work? I have a Radial yellow reamping box but its not at home right now

    Quote from Dimi84

    If the kemper tone is close enough to bias (not for me and my profiling personally but may be for you) and this does better what you think lacks in other profiles..


    At least you have reason to Think the issue is not kpa in your case.

    I was scrolling through a lot of profiles before I found one I thought "well this one is maybe a bit similar perhaps"


    But I couldn't find any profiles that was super similar, I know that. I just did my best with what I had at disposal

    OK. Looking at those graphs from the OP, they do seem to be fairly extreme. But I don't know exactly what I'm looking at. If I look at just the blue and yellow lines (target and source audio), they're not that far off. But maybe I'm not reading the graph right.


    That said, I think somebody mentioned that Ozone uses 8000 sample points. I think that's basically useless - as in way too much :) that will likely make it react to differences you don't actually want it to react to.


    Secondly, the profiles you are currently experimenting with - is that from a pool of previously selected profiles? If so, you may want to go find some completely different ones. Maybe they are too similar for you to get the results you want.


    Thirdly, if you only tweak the gain and not, say for instance treble and presence - go do that. And try with the EQ placed both before and after amp stack. You can't expect a profile made by another player, with another guitar, with different tastes etc etc etc to fit right into your preferences. If a profile doesn't give you what you're after, TWEAK for a bit. Also play with the definition. And try using a studio EQ stomp and zoom in on where the pick attack lies with your guitar and playing and boost that - try it both before and after the stack as well.


    EDIT: Also: "mix ready" doesn't mean anything. Which mix? Obviously not the one you're looking for...

    Quote from Cederick

    I was scrolling through a lot of profiles before I found one I thought "well this one is maybe a bit similar perhaps"
    But I couldn't find any profiles that was super similar, I know that. I just did my best with what I had at disposal

    Yea man. But profiling will just make things clearer. If bias has a tone, response you feel is lacking from most (if not all) kemper profiles then profiling the direct bias amp will clear the waters a bit. It will also clear the waters even more if you just do a direct profile and use the IRs with one room mic.