Rabea is down With the kemper being able to mimic an amp

  • Guys, 8:41, Bea states no one is going to be able to tell if its the kemper when recorded, he may also mentions the competition but thats enough for me lol.


    Shame he does not tour with his kemper like chappers does (from memory)


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Edited once, last by ashtweth ().

  • At the Thomann interview both said that they didnt tour with their kempers cause they dont push the same amount of air compared to their victory amps.


    Dont know if that was the victory endorser speaking or if thats their honest opinion.

  • I wonder if he has compared this to the active head ,well guess we will never know either way :)


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • At the Thomann interview both said that they didnt tour with their kempers cause they dont push the same amount of air compared to their victory amps.


    Dont know if that was the victory endorser speaking or if thats their honest opinion.

    they could use the Steve Vai solution: at 4.44


  • It gets harder with crowded mixes, where guitars are EQ'd anyway, considering how frequencies may clash together, ect, ect.


    But it's definitely do-able to tell the difference between kemper and real amp in recording. He mentions that "nobody will be able to tell if it's an axe fx, kemper, headrush" ect ect, so not sure if he's referring to the real amp or not.


    Whenever I record a test (and I don't post much at all on forums, mostly because I'm tired of triggered kemper users loosing it over me saying kemper is not perfect) some will tell the difference in a matter of seconds.


    Others will not be able to hear the difference even when guitars are naked, solo, with no other sounds playing.


    I can say just the same thing with pickup tests. I have worked for pickup companies in testing phase and that was an eye opening experience in terms of how minute, tiny tonal differences that many cannot spot is obvious to others.


    The difficult part is often finding people who will be sensitive enough to these differences, which you know will translate to bigger ones in feel.


    Now these debates almost always get to "Ok, I can hear the difference you say exists, but they are still meaningless".


    If it comes to producing records, mixing tricks included, and the barometer is whether the audience cares, I agree that they are largely meaningless. I wouldn't just say that about kemper though -- but most of these modelers in the same "league" per se.


    When it comes to the experience of the player I'd say it's more mixed. Many swear by kemper (or other modelers), then some prefer real amps. I am in the later group. It's in the nuances. Doesn't mean I don't think kemper is great btw.


    And it's at that point where people jump in with the usual objections 1) but amps sound different from one point to the next anyway 2) but two amps of the same model sound different 3) but temperature 4) but...


    And I agree with many of them when it comes to appreciating just how close kemper and other modelers are to amps. It's just that even considering all this there are still nuances that are different -- and consistently different. It's not a perfect analogy to compare these to the changes you get from one 5150 to another.


    All that said I do not believe that it's impossible to get even closer to real amps, to a level where even from th experience of the player it will became impossible to spot differences. If I can sit down and spot differences they are big enough for a human with at least some expertise to be able to perceive them.


    But at least from a technological standpoint these can definitely be minimized further. They will still exist, most likely, for years to come, even KPA 2 and Axe FX 3 but they could be imperceptible to humans, even the most critical ones.


    Maybe not to my dog, but still. Even firmware updates have gotten things closer when it comes to kemper, and maybe the gap is bridged completely in the current generation even in the above sense.


    Cheerios

  • To add, I think it's also about perception. If in your head you are thinking that tube amps are the end all, you are going to be more excited and inspired when playing versus going digital and having a bias that digital stinks.
    I think those bias's we have a huge effect.


    For me, not having the money to buy multiple tube amps, spending money on new tubes and maintenance and also having the space to have speaker cabs setup, makes the Kemper the perfect solution for me. If I can get 90% of the way there with good profiles, I'm happy with that, because at the end of the day, your typical listener won't know and give two craps about it (*unless you are in a band known for gear etc...)

  • To add, I think it's also about perception. If in your head you are thinking that tube amps are the end all, you are going to be more excited and inspired when playing versus going digital and having a bias that digital stinks.
    I think those bias's we have a huge effect.


    For me, not having the money to buy multiple tube amps, spending money on new tubes and maintenance and also having the space to have speaker cabs setup, makes the Kemper the perfect solution for me. If I can get 90% of the way there with good profiles, I'm happy with that, because at the end of the day, your typical listener won't know and give two craps about it (*unless you are in a band known for gear etc...)

    I agree. Bias plays a massive role. It's just that it's not all bias -- and there is also "pro kemper" bias that comes into play, or "pro modeler" bias, and it's pretty strong too, I find.

  • Dimi84, aside from your opinion (Personally, I think the differences are there but for me they are meaningless compared to the possibilities - reamping, SPDIF, RigExchange, consistency, stereo setup ...) I really like your objective approach. Stick to it!


    I would never want to miss my KPA. But as every other gear I have there are Pro's and Con's. Even with classic tube amps, there are things you have to deal with.


    To add: KPA ist often compared to the *unmiced* cabinet instead of the whole signal chain of a miced cab - which fails it's original purpose.

  • I have never been so proud to be tone deaf and not hear the subtle naunces ^^ But it's nice to know they are there


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • Dimi84, aside from your opinion (Personally, I think the differences are there but for me they are meaningless compared to the possibilities - reamping, SPDIF, RigExchange, consistency, stereo setup ...) I really like your objective approach. Stick to it!


    I would never want to miss my KPA. But as every other gear I have there are Pro's and Con's. Even with classic tube amps, there are things you have to deal with.


    To add: KPA ist often compared to the *unmiced* cabinet instead of the whole signal chain of a miced cab - which fails it's original purpose.

    I think judgments of "meaning" are highly "subjective" (I don't like using that word because it presents a false dichotomy between "objective" and "subjective" -- just using it to mean "personal). Any evaluative statement has a factor or set of factors that act like a "barometer". I think many disagreements stem from not being clear about what these "barometers" are for each person (best possible tone, the kpa in the context of a working musician, ect ect).


    Then we end up with a lot of disagreements and confusion that are not about tone at all.


    In the context of all possibilities tonal/feel differences become less and less important for me too. Even Metallica uses axe fx these days live -- a big reason being portability -- so a device like the KPA, especially during such economic times, becomes more valuable in the wider context of things. If I was to do a review of the kemper in this context, considering a wider range of "barometers" it's difficult not to recommend it over real amps to a musician living in 2017.


    I just like to narrow down my "barometer focus" (if it makes sense) when it comes to testing to see possibilities of how to improve KPA or other devices, pickups, whatever it may be :)


    Cheerios

  • @Dimi84 Thats does clear it all up for me man thanks a lot, i guess some artist who want a specific barometer will choose the amp over the KPA (purist who want their now thing which they identify in the 'barometer') Feel..naunces or some thing else.


    Rabea and Chappers appear to be in that category. My only "argument" with those types is have you learned every thing and tweaked every thing that the KPA can do, they probably have.


    Then as you said you have the artist who will choose amp modeling for an economic preference and convenience (like Metallica)
    WHY, because the audience does not care and or know , the differences are too subtle for them.
    Chappers originally wanted to use it for touring, thats his own words.


    Do these naunces effect your ability as a creative artist to write and perform...well for some it does (Looks like chappers and Rabea are that crowd)


    is it justified? ONLY for some, does speak for the bigger picture? NOPE..its an individual thing.
    With out sounding like the kemper is less (i would never say that BTW)


    I will say the quality is universal, and pro's are better than the cons.
    But the artist knows best for him/her self.


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • I've said this before, but it's a fact that the subtle differences between any given amp and well-made Profiles of it are minuscule compared to the destruction imparted on said amp's sound when it's mic'd in a live venue.


    Mic-positioning variances, feedback, bleed from the drums, vocals and other instruments on stage as well as crowd noise all contribute to destroying, comparatively-speaking, the amp's initial, "perfect" tone, or the one that was refined at home and rehearsals and was used in a studio for recording.


    Enter Kemper. There's simply no other way to reliably reproduce one's real-amp "album" / recorded tone on stage.


    Conclusion: Arguments over subtle differences between amps and Profiles thereof are moot in this context.

  • Agree with all you say. I'd even add that some for whom "barometer" is tone (not necessarily replicating amp tone; even that being high on the list as well) prefer the kemper for these subtle differences, differences being quite consistent.


    I profiled a guy's amp for example, he played around with the profile for a week, then when he tried his amp again (same mic position, nothing changed) he texted me he prefers the profile "because it cuts better in the mix and feels tighter".


    So I haven't just noticed people preferring the amp to kemper due to differences. It also goes the other way around... quite a bit.


    Cheerios

  • Conclusion: Arguments over subtle differences between amps and Profiles thereof are moot in this context

    I agree for the most part. There are exceptions, depending on individual, of course (a few people like that "chaos" of uncertainty; then some venues are good enough) but I still think that when it comes to tone itself tests/discussion matters. If I conduct 10 tests with different amps and send them all in to kemper pointing the same differences between profile and amp, I don't think that's a bad thing per se, considering what the goal of the kemper is to begin with, what I use it for the most (recording at home) ect ect. The more controlled the environment the more the differences start to matter (positively or negatively, probably).

  • And I love you guys. Like you talk in a civilized manner and all, avoiding personal attacks, being open to a different view. Facebook kemper user wants to "beat me up for saying bad things about kemper" lol. He's kept texting for like a week, me not even replying anything. It was too funny so I didn't block him up to where it got too creepy :D

  • I experience a certain amount of tubeist insult as a result of my decision to use the Kemper. I do detect differences in tone but the benefits to me considerably out weigh any disadvantages. Oddly, one of my happiest Kemper moments has been getting a truly clean sound for a jazz gig. Every tube amp I've ever had has had a warm edge, even when played low. I use in ears for a lot of my current work and the Kemper is the best tool for this that I have found.
    I like this forum for the same reasons, no personal nonsense and, by and large, a mature approach and genuine interest in the opinions of others.

  • The point behind the "tubeist insults" is - as in many fields - that people do not even try out things and just repeat others and their opinions, especially in the times of social video platforms.


    Plus many many guys who talk about gear ("gearheads") are bad players. That's just my experience. The real pro-players who *practise* and play *live* (no living room heroes) or play studio sessions (no so called *home recording*) just have to admit that the KPA has true advantages. I'm sure the same priced competitors do as well but I can't tell, because I never played them.


    I still have a small backup for the KPA at gigs but it is so much easier with the KPA to get a great tone - especially with IEM.


    For me the KPA with studio monitors or wedges lacks a liiiittle bit of feel at living room / home enviroments compared to true guitar cabs, especially in the bass range. But these frequencies are the ones which you want to avoid on stage and in the mix. It's designed for players and engineers, not for tone hunters and traditionalists. I've come from that way and love playing great tube stuff. But for me it's too much effort at gigs to make them sound equally good as the KPA in various venues.

  • I find the "it doesn't push the same air" complaint a little uneven. Of course the Kemper isn't going to give you the same visceral experience as a tube amp through a proper cab, but when you play out, that "pushing air", "in the room" experience you get is only relevant to you. Your audience is hearing a mic'd cab through PA speakers, so it may as well be a Kemper in the end. There is an argument to be made that how your cab behind you blowing air at your knees affects your playing and enjoyment of the experience, but ultimately something that gets lost by the time it reaches an audience anyway.


    They do have a point in that the Kemper's power amp is weak compared to a tube amps (and many other solid state power amps). I know they both have a power rack, but perhaps their experience would be different if they used the Kemper with a Matrix GT1000FX, which adds a lot more "tubey" warmth.