For a while I wondered if Chris’ KPA was actually that design made real, but since it does not incorporate intermodulation distortion analysis I’m optimistic that the KPA is on to something original.
I believe the intermodulation distortion analysis happens when you do the refining step.
My thought is that you can't protect the concept of generic model + waveshaping but you can protect how you extract some parameters from the test tones, what i would call the "characterisation".
That's why CK talked about that everywhere.(make it public is the first step to protect your work)
"make it public is the first step to protect your work"...after the patent was obtained.
There is no discussion until when or if it comes out of " Patent Pending" status.
Even if the patent is granted(could be in a month or years) it will not prohibit any company from cloning,copying,capturing or any other term they decide to apply to their device.
No one can own the process of profiling. Kemper would have to prove someone is doing it the "Patented Kemper Way" for it to potentially be a problem.
The patent office might grant a patent for a particular way of doing profiling that Kemper proves they invented. Not the generic process of profiling. Kemper didn't invent profiling. There may be something in the way Kemper does it that they invented, but that is all they could protect.
Let's see when and if they even get a patent issued, and what the patent says Kemper has the rights to.
Display MoreThere is no discussion until when or if it comes out of " Patent Pending" status.
Even if the patent is granted(could be in a month or years) it will not prohibit any company from cloning,copying,capturing or any other term they decide to apply to their device.
No one can own the process of profiling. Kemper would have to prove someone is doing it the "Patented Kemper Way" for it to potentially be a problem.
The patent office might grant a patent for a particular way of doing profiling that Kemper proves they invented. Not the generic process of profiling. Kemper didn't invent profiling. There may be something in the way Kemper does it that they invented, but that is all they could protect.
Let's see when and if they even get a patent issued, and what the patent says Kemper has the rights to.
Don't care much about this patent issue but to me Kemper invented profiling. Capturing the sonic quality of a cab (Redwirez etc) , of a desk , compressor, eq (Nebula) or of a room (Altiverb) doesn't exactly look like what the Kemper does. Never heard of profiling before the Kemper, never seen anything like this unit and the way it does what it does.
I doubt it. I don't have a copy of the full profiling test tone sequence but if there were any crossing sine tones being generated (as has been mentioned) that is when it would happen - not during the refining step. The refining step has more to do with transient analysis, which gets mentioned somewhere in one of the Kemper publications.
-djh
It seems that today these technics are present in university's labs. I wonder if you can ask a patent for these technics or their applications.
But the point is, where utility patents like this are concerned, is to Reveal As Much Prior Art As You Can In Order To Explain What Makes Your Invention Different while Explaining In Detail How To Build A Particular (Physical, Material) Something. Patents don’t exist to protect Ideas – they exist to protect their Implementations. So, whenever Patent claims are brought up by anyone, I ask people to take nothing at face value and digest the actual works in question. And as Adfinitum mentioned, he’s right – I’m not aware of Line6 having ever litigated their modeling patent either, and frankly it makes So Many Claims that I’m not sure if they ever really could. This is the Keep It Simple Stupid rule of patents – more complexity means more holes for others to attack. But at least they’re practical claims, and the same goes for the Jackson patent.
I’m not at all concerned with any potential patent claims coming from the Axe-FX front, although I would be unimpressed by Cliff Chase as a businessman if he didn't try to cast some FUD in this area. Most people think that patents are an ironclad guarantee of inventor rights, but really they’re not – the “guarantee” comes through active litigation, and ONLY active litigation. Patents themselves are mainly proof that the inventor claimed something by a certain date, and classified it accurately – beyond that, it’s Game On which why the only people who benefit from patent litigation are Large Companies with Deep Pockets.
-djh
Thanks for a very informative post.
It is very confusing for some users when Fractal call eq tone matching for "their own profiling".
It is a smart marketing move though since so many want to be able to profile and Cliff knows this.
And like you mentioned, Cliff has really cast some FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) at competition without any regards to business ethics.
Some FUD info history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
The axe fx 2 can't do any profiling. (automatically capturing the dynamics, distortion, compression, eq and feel of an amp rig.) It's only doing traditional eq tone matching that captures the eq like Ozone, voxengo, waves, with component modeling and that can't cause any patent problems. People have been doing exactly this for over ten years with modelers, amps, software + eq match.
Here is one fractal thread about this (now with fixed link):
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/…perfect-amp-matching.html
However it seem to be a touchy subject over there since another thread that discussed the KPA patent was censored and removed from there some weeks ago. Open discussion forums are always good 
Just read the Fractal Profiling thread. They have a Sine Wave sweep function as an added third voice in the built-in synth. They claim to be able to "profile" by sweeping a real amp with a varying sine wave from 20hz to 20khz. I doubt its the same because they are only capturing the frequency response, not the distortion waveform characteristics. I'm sure it improves the realism...but its an eq patch on preamp and cabinet models unless I'm missing something. They want true profiling so bad they can taste it....lol.
bd
Just read the Fractal Profiling thread. They have a Sine Wave sweep function as an added third voice in the built-in synth. They claim to be able to "profile" by sweeping a real amp with a varying sine wave from 20hz to 20khz. I doubt its the same because they are only capturing the frequency response, not the distortion waveform characteristics. I'm sure it improves the realism...but its an eq patch on preamp and cabinet models unless I'm missing something. They want true profiling so bad they can taste it....lol.
bd
I haven't tried the Sine Wave sweep thing yet, but with a short time I've had with the Tone Matching, I must say I'm very, very impressed!! Over the years I had done Eq matching with software, but having all this inside the box is much easier and the results are great!
They want true profiling so bad they can taste it....lol.
They're eating at the wrong restaurant. 
Some discussion around Axe-Fx and tone-matching a real amp:
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/…atching-real-amp-yet.html
Looks like that it's not all roses and champagne. Since Tone Matching tries to fit a sample to the existing modelling blocks, the end result really comes along how well existing blocks can replicate real amp&cab characteristcs. And how well Axe, in general, can reproduce tone, dynamics, harmonics etc. of a real amp/cab. Because of these restrictions some Axe users are already requesting real profiling functionality, to be able to capture any amp & cab, not only those that are "pre-modelled" in Axe.
Just read the Fractal Profiling thread. They have a Sine Wave sweep function as an added third voice in the built-in synth. They claim to be able to "profile" by sweeping a real amp with a varying sine wave from 20hz to 20khz. I doubt its the same because they are only capturing the frequency response, not the distortion waveform characteristics. I'm sure it improves the realism...but its an eq patch on preamp and cabinet models unless I'm missing something. They want true profiling so bad they can taste it....lol.
bd
On TGP there is a post about tone matching, where the Axe is used to tone match a viola based on a clip from Youtube. It gets based on an inbuilt synth block in the Axe. The results are in the ball park, but not exactly tone matched. The claim is that the result is "much more natural now".
Hang on a minute - this guy hasn't been within 500 metres of a viola, so how can he say it's more natural now? I'm sure it's a great tool and will have some good results, but the level of fanboy excitement is ridiculous.
Some discussion around Axe-Fx and tone-matching a real amp:
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/…atching-real-amp-yet.html
Looks like that it's not all roses and champagne. Since Tone Matching tries to fit a sample to the existing modelling blocks, the end result really comes along how well existing blocks can replicate real amp&cab characteristcs. And how well Axe, in general, can reproduce tone, dynamics, harmonics etc. of a real amp/cab. Because of these restrictions some Axe users are already requesting real profiling functionality, to be able to capture any amp & cab, not only those that are "pre-modelled" in Axe.
Come on over boys, we got real profiling here! It sounds like "tone matching" should be called "model morphing" to me. 
It reminds me of this:
[Blocked Image: http://www.mojomusic.ca/Current_Events/files/ehmemoryd.jpg]
[Blocked Image: http://www.behringer.com/assets/VM1_P0520_TopPerspective_web.jpg]
On TGP there is a post about tone matching, where the Axe is used to tone match a viola based on a clip from Youtube. It gets based on an inbuilt synth block in the Axe. The results are in the ball park, but not exactly tone matched. The claim is that the result is "much more natural now".
Hang on a minute - this guy hasn't been within 500 metres of a viola, so how can he say it's more natural now? I'm sure it's a great tool and will have some good results, but the level of fanboy excitement is ridiculous.
Dear Mr Sir Guy,
I made that post. I own three violins and have played for forty years. The EQ I captured was from a recording of a viola. If you listened to the clip you heard a very synthy sounding patch that was improved by overlaying the EQ of a real viola. It definitely sounded much more natural though not exactly like a real viola. I never claimed it did, it is a synth after all.
Now go look at my posting history and find anywhere or anything negative I have said about any poster or piece of gear on TGP. That includes the Kemper which I frequently praise. I can not say the same about you based on your insulting post.
A lot of folks here spend way too much time posting negative stuff about a piece of kit they neither own nor want. Jus sayin'
Here's the thread:
Display MoreDear Mr Sir Guy,
I made that post. I own three violins and have played for forty years. The EQ I captured was from a recording of a viola. If you listened to the clip you heard a very synthy sounding patch that was improved by overlaying the EQ of a real viola. It definitely sounded much more natural though not exactly like a real viola. I never claimed it did, it is a synth after all.
Now go look at my posting history and find anywhere or anything negative I have said about any poster or piece of gear on TGP. That includes the Kemper which I frequently praise. I can not say the same about you based on your insulting post.
A lot of folks here spend way too much time posting negative stuff about a piece of kit they neither own nor want. Jus sayin'
Here's the thread:
The synth effect is pretty cool but both sound equally fake to me. Honestly, I don't hear any improvement in the tone there. It does not sound more natural to my ears. It just sounds like the same synth with a different EQ, not better or worse.
The synth effect is pretty cool but both sound equally fake to me. Honestly, I don't hear any improvement in the tone there. It does not sound more natural to my ears. It just sounds like the same synth with a different EQ, not better or worse.
Many disagree.
Now go look at my posting history and find anywhere or anything negative I have said about any poster or piece of gear on TGP. That includes the Kemper which I frequently praise.
Truth.
Many disagree.
A lot of people seem to hear what they want to hear. Someone from Fractal made a test a few days ago to prove it. But objectively the only difference there is the equalization and that does not make it more natural or less fake sounding.
A lot of people seem to hear what they want to hear. Someone from Fractal made a test a few days ago to prove it. But objectively the only difference there is the equalization and that does not make it more natural or less fake sounding.
Ok. You win. On to your next cyber conquest now.
