Into the void aka You moron, you traded away the Kemper

    Quote from Dean_R

    With an SM58 and not knowing what speakers to use, 1x12, 2x12, 4x12 , no knowledge of what Mic Pre will be in use while using a load box or power attenuator that sucks the life (high Frequency response) of tube amps that the half decent ones have eq to correct this, never mind mic placement , all of that with an unknown budget in a room that likely has no treatment for reflection or bass traps etc, with all of these limitations, you're suggesting that his results will be better.
    This s almost the same as saying "Close your eyes. Feel it. The light…it’s always been there. It will guide you"


    But then realizing what Han Solo said “That’s not how the Force works!” :D

    So you're implication is that he will learn nothing, hence my "you'll find some revelations" by working at it. Please. Don't insinuate somebody is incapable of learning and making things work. Simply coupling a proper amp and cab will be a far more visceral experience than the KPA is capable of. Respectable emulation? Sometimes very much so, but certainly no infinite replacement.

    Quote from Dean_R

    To be honest at this point and I meant that with all the respect: It's not about Kemper or any other modeler It's very likely that you like most folks here, most definitely will get better results with Amplitube, BIAS or any modeler, than using a real amp. for recording.

    I disagree somewhat. Though modelers can be used for recording, I've soured considerably on the KPA trying to use it for recording recently. Had far more satisfying results mic'ing a proper amp and cab in the past. Kemper's digital imprint to me sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm still working on finding a satisfactory solution for me within the KPA but hasn't gone swimmingly. At this point, if I'm going to keep it, most likely it will be for the convenience of playing life and going FOH, not because of any sonic superiority. To the contrary.

    AJ there are PLENTY of good Mark V and EVHIII profiles out there Brother
    Stop tripping and get your ass back soon :)


    JUST an OT 2 cents...You know i am yet to see how the TINY nuance in the Kemper High gain department (when profiling)
    STOPS AN ARTIST FROM BEING CREATIVE...If its an ASS HAIR difference and it does not stop you playing a RIFF
    or LEAD in your creative potential then the difference is .....what? NOTHING.


    The kemper passes the clean test but the ass hair high gain difference (glad to know its there and not being a smart ass) is not enough of a reason to sell a kemper IMHO ..if that is the reason just saying :P . AJ you would leave when we have beer here man ? Shame on you !! :D And where are those 8 string demos man!! You have not played your 8 string ??


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Edited 2 times, last by ashtweth ().

    Like 2
    Quote from MementoMori

    So you're implication is that he will learn nothing, hence my "you'll find some revelations" by working at it. Please. Don't insinuate somebody is incapable of learning and making things work. Simply coupling a proper amp and cab will be a far more visceral experience than the KPA is capable of. Respectable emulation? Sometimes very much so, but certainly no infinite replacement.

    To be fair, I think Dean's suggesting that it'll take a whole lot o' learnin' and experimentin' in order to compete with, let alone beat, the sorts of results he's likely to get straight out of the box with the Kemper in a home-recording environment with an untreated room and little or no mic'ing experience.


    IMHO, the statement's fair-enough when viewed in-context. Just my 2¢ worth, mate.

    Quote from MementoMori

    So you're implication is that he will learn nothing, hence my "you'll find some revelations" by working at it. Please. Don't insinuate somebody is incapable of learning and making things work. Simply coupling a proper amp and cab will be a far more visceral experience than the KPA is capable of. Respectable emulation? Sometimes very much so, but certainly no infinite replacement.

    It's not about him learning or not learning, there are obvious limitations In a home recording environment, it's virtually impossible to get a desired guitar tone specifically using a 5150. for metal tones in a home environment unless you spend multiples of the cost of the Kemper for proper acoustic treatment at a minimum.


    Whether it's 50 or 100 watts, if that amp volume is put on 2 to 3., I guarantee that the rattling windows will be a major distraction at a minimum. I've had similar 50 watts amps in a home setting, the 4x12 were outrageously useless and so was the 2x12 and even the 1x12 so I'm talking based on personal experience and common sense. The best results I've accomplished and watched and listened to other accomplish is from the Kemper.


    My approach is if others are making it work with the KPA then I can also make it happen.


    The fact remains that I haven't seen anyone accomplish any decent recording of high gain amps in a home environment without proper isolation and expensive acoustic treatment, literally you have to build a professional studio in your home otherwise, it's not possible for any one no matter how much they have learned or weather they're already full fledged professional engineers. Even when it comes to mixing, without acoustic treatment, a professional won't even attempt that at home not because they don't have the knowledge or the experience or learning.


    Again this has nothing to do with Kemper.


    A POD, Helix, AXE or Kemper are simply more appropriate solutions for home recording than real amps and microphones, if anyone advises otherwise, I have to respectfully disagree.

    Guys, chill out...


    I hear you on the untreated room and crazy volumes, @Dean_R. I'm looking at a Rivera Silent Sister Iso Cab, it should reduce volumes to a large extent and then I'll probably see what I can do to muffle the spillover as much as I can through other means. Naturally it won't be like a treated room, but I've seen some good results from them and they apparently reduce volume by about 30db. The best I can do in a bad situation.


    Naturally, I will have an attentuator as well. No reason to be afraid of them. Looking at a Weber, those seem to get good reviews. The trick is to not attentuate so much that you kill the tone for what I've heard. Heck, even Slash used a attenuator on the album he did with Miles Kennedy. No need to be afraid.


    I'll also go with a tube screamer to push the amp into break up a little faster. Keep in mind these are small amps that don't need to be run flat out. In fact, it's not a good idea to even run a large amp flat out in a treated room. The microphone will distort for one. You want tone, and that takes some hard driving, but it doesn't mean I run a 50watt amp at 50 watts. I don't think anyone does that in a recording situation realistically.


    @CJGOMEZ As far as a preamp to run my amped signal, I'm looking at a Joe Meek someone has for sale. Pretty simple stuff, made in China, but should be great to experiment with.


    @MementoMori Haha, that spat occurred because you were going to quit over an editor, Or rather the lack of one. I thank you deeply, Sir, for having some faith in my ability to succeed in something like this.
    Honestly, I have seen the comparisons by profilers like Sin and Dimi and I understand their findings wrt to a Kemper fingerprint, but it doesn't really click in my head because the Kemper is pretty much the first "real" amp I've owned wii don't hear a signature because I don't have the real amps. And based on what other users have said, I pretty much figured that it isn't such a big deal, after all, big bands use the Kemper. And as blind tests have shown like Sin's latest, Few can pinpoint that fingerprint in a mix.
    At the same time, while I agree a lot of users get great results with the Kemper, I think it's equally true that some guys get get results out of tube amps at home. It's not unheard of and probably more common than it's being made out. And as far as recording a huge album, I think more people actually do that that with an Axe Fx. Even the Kemper guys will capture the real amp and take the profiles on tour.


    Also, I will be simultaneously working with amp and cab sims, so perhaps I will get a better result from those if as others have suggested I cannot point a mic at a cone and capture a decent tone. I know other users have said IRS are no match for the Kemper's cabinet technology and I concur with that view. It will indeed be most interesting trying to find IRs that will work well, I've heard it's a harrowing process to audition them. Just have to do my research and hope I don't make (another) bad decision.


    @ashtweth I know what you mean, Brother. The amps available on the Kemper are par excellence. But it's one thing to have an amp dialled in for you. Entirely another to have the amp dialled in for your guitar, playing style, etc. I think that was a point @schreckmusic made earlier and I just have to say to you guys something I think I have learnt: rent an amp you like, pay some money and go to a studio and profile that sucker with your guitar, pickups, etc. Never share it. That is your tone, not the thing someone dialled in for you. You want the best, go get the best.

    Heck, with the money you drop on profiles, Ash, you should definitely do this.


    @Monkey_Man Nicky, if there's one thing I've learnt, I can't play drums at the standard required in heavy metal. In that respect, while I want to continue practicing, I am not going to be tracking with the Roland anytime soon. In that respect, I don't think I'll miss it very much. Probably get a nice cocktail kit to just jam on and work on my playing.


    @whippinpost91850 Hopefully not anytime soon, haha! I want to make a go of this and I'm not afraid of getting some egg on my face.


    @cybermgk It might seem like some sort of "survivalist" death wish, but I think of it as another musical excursion. Money is of course a factor, I could not buy these amps outright. I will probably buy a Kemper again... or maybe I'll be able to hold out till Kemper 2, that can't be far off the horizon.


    Nothing ventured, nothing gained, guys. I got to make a go of this, and by God, I'm going to get it right.


    Hey, Something arrived in the mail btw. A Damage Control Glass Nexus. That should cover me for all the FX I need, with a tube screamer in front. Glad I didn't sell the Loopholic, can use that to control the Fx and also switch amp channels.

    It's not just the recording of the kit that I was thinking of, AJ, but the ability to massage the MIDI data to the point where it sounds like a pro playing. You can do this, bud; it's easy-peasy as you'd know.


    Heck, I play drums from a 30-year-old Roland master keyboard (A-50) that's been rebuilt 3 times and still can't even produce AT on all keys, but hey, just like you, I've not had the opportunity to work on my drumming to the extent necessary, and I can't even afford a MIDI-control kit anyway.


    Given the recording pitfalls you're likely to encounter (I forgot to mention all the mic's and preamps you'd need too), along with the MIDI advantage you'd be sacrificing, I'd still think hard about letting the TD-30 brain go, mate. If you've got a keyboard, you can still ditch the control kit if you need the bucks and just use the brain, as I do.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    It's not just the recording of the kit that I was thinking of, AJ, but the ability to massage the MIDI data to the point where it sounds like a pro playing. You can do this, bud; it's easy-peasy as you'd know.


    Heck, I play drums from a 30-year-old Roland master keyboard (A-50) that's been rebuilt 3 times and still can't even produce AT on all keys, but hey, just like you, I've not had the opportunity to work on my drumming to the extent necessary, and I can't even afford a MIDI-control kit anyway.


    Given the recording pitfalls you're likely to encounter (I forgot to mention all the mic's and preamps you'd need too), along with the MIDI advantage you'd be sacrificing, I'd still think hard about letting the TD-30 brain go, mate. If you've got a keyboard, you can still ditch the control kit if you need the bucks and just use the brain, as I do.

    Some good advice, Nicky. I'll think about it.


    Oh, and you better check your facts about the Sm57 and 58. I was right.
    http://blog.shure.com/10-things-might-not-know-sm58/

    Quote from nightlight

    Can someone provide me with some advice on a ribbon or other type of mic to pair for recording an amp?

    I think you should cut your teeth on just a single mic - good ribbon mics are expensive and require a preamp with high gain (which are usually a bit more expensive too), and until you have learned to get great tone using just one mic, adding another will not improve sounds - probably to contrary :) Just my two pennies.


    Just trying to save you some pocket change for now :)

    Quote from Michael_dk

    I think you should cut your teeth on just a single mic - good ribbon mics are expensive and require a preamp with high gain (which are usually a bit more expensive too), and until you have learned to get great tone using just one mic, adding another will not improve sounds - probably to contrary :) Just my two pennies.
    Just trying to save you some pocket change for now :)


    Viva la Republique de Credit Card. Thanks, Michael. I think I shall do just that.

    Looks like TGP is still down, as it has been for the past three days! Or is it just me?


    Can anyone recommend a good preamp that I should look at as well? How about a Focusrite ISA? Too cheap?


    Other options are a UA 610 or a Twinfinity, if I can raise the funds. Better options?


    How about Slate Digital's virtual preamps? The monthly subscription looks pretty good!

    Quote from nightlight

    I think it's equally true that some guys get get results out of tube amps at home.

    Much of Pete Thorn's channel is dedicated to this possibility.

    Quote from nightlight

    Some good advice, Nicky. I'll think about it.
    Oh, and you better check your facts about the Sm57 and 58. I was right.
    http://blog.shure.com/10-things-might-not-know-sm58/

    Sorry AJ, I was right. From the blog:


    The SM58 was designed for vocal applications, utilizing a ball grille that acts as an effective P-pop filter. The SM57 was designed primarily as an instrument microphone where a smaller grille size is preferred. In this application, P-pop is not a concern.

    The tone changes when you swap out with such a radically-different grille shape, mate. If it didn't you'd see '58s being used on snares everywhere, and you don't.


    Also from the blog:

    The Shure SM58 has become the touchstone for a professional vocal microphone, perfect in form, function, and feel. For many musicians, it is the only microphone needed for their entire career. Everywhere people make music, and for almost as long as music has been amplified, the SM58 has been “what you sing through.” If any product has ever earned the title of “worldwide industry standard,” surely the SM58 is it.

    I'd argue that the '57 on snare is equally-deserving of the “worldwide industry standard" label, as it might well be for guitar cabs as well.


    Anyway, I stand by what I said originally. I've sung into both, and they sounded very-different from each other to me. The internal design is only half the equation when it comes to mic's. The external shape, including the grille and whatnot, all affect reflections, both internal and external, as well as the path sound has to travel in order to reach the diaphragm. Remember my rant about phase issues when mic'ing cabs with tilted '57s and other mic's? We touched on this physical-shape aspect of the subject; someone even provided a link which backed up my "theory".


    My guess is that you remember and it's coming back to you now. If the mic's were truly-interchangeable on snare and cabs, we'd see a heck-of-a-lot more '58s on 'em, and we don't. That's not to say you can't use 'em, but as I said earlier, if you want that mojo that saw the '57 rise to the prominence it enjoys, there ain't no substitute... IMHO.


    Remove the pop filter, Nicky. It will be exactly the same.


    As mentioned in #3.



    #3 Add a meshed ball grille to the SM57, and you have the SM58.
    Both models are based on the Unidyne III cartridge design developed by Shure engineer Ernie Seeler in the late 1950s. The primary difference between the SM57 and the SM58 is the grille design. The SM58 was designed for vocal applications, utilizing a ball grille that acts as an effective P-pop filter. The SM57 was designed primarily as an instrument microphone where a smaller grille size is preferred. In this application, P-pop is not a concern.





    More on the subject from Shure:
    On the Shure FAQ "SM57 vs SM58 - proximity effect", the answer contained the following sentence:


    "Remove the ball grill from the SM58 and it will be more similar to the SM57 in its low frequency response."


    Can you actually use an SM58 this way, or was that only a theoretical statement?

    ANSWER:


    "Can you actually use an SM58 this way, or was that only a theoretical statement?"
    Yes, but be very careful! With the ball grill removed, there is very little protection for the SM58 diaphragm. Take the ball grill off and examine the SM58 mic element to see for yourself. As long as you take great care, the SM58 can be used with the ball grill removed.




    Given that I can't afford my SM58 being smashed to bits with the grill off, perhaps I'll invest in an SM57 though :D

    After reading some more from Shure, apparently the grill adds some high end to the signal. I think with the grill off the 58, it will be similar. So maybe not exactly the same, but really really close if you're on a budget.



    What are the real reasons an SM58 should be used for vocals, and an SM57 be used for instruments? Of course, everybody seems to use these mics as mentioned. No one has given me a convincing reason for this, other than 'That's just what you do- everyone does it this way'. Please ease my anxious mind!

    ANSWER:


    The SM57 and SM58 microphones are based on the same cartridge design. The main difference is in the grille design. The SM58 was designed for vocal application and it uses a ball grille that acts as an effective pop filter. The SM57 was designed as an instrument microphone where a smaller grille size is preferred. In this application, pop and wind are not usually a concern.


    The SM57 uses an integral resonator/grille assembly, where grille is actually a part of the cartridge. These two grille designs place the diaphragm of each microphone in a different acoustical environment. The distance from the top of the grille to the diaphragm is shorter on the SM57 compared to that of the SM58. This allows for a closer miking position with a more pronounced proximity effect. The different resonator/grille assembly design of the SM57 is also responsible for its slightly higher output above 5 kHz.

    Tim Pierce, top session guitarist home studio setup......

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