Tone question

  • Hi all,
    I just have a question about different amp tones. A friend was over with his Helix as he wanted to see how it and the Kemper compared. We took 2 crunch gain amps (69 Plexi from MBritt and a JCM 800 from MBritt). We chose 2 with the same gain level (5.2 on Kemper, dialing down the 800 to match). We then dialed in those amps on the Helix again with the same gain.
    We ran both through an impulse response on the Helix, using the insert to send the Kemper through (without cab).
    We immediately noticed the 2 Kemper amps sound exactly the same (very little difference between the amp tones) and the Helix had a drastic difference between amp tones.
    So I am just curious why that is. Any ideas? Don't get me wrong, love my Kemper. Just found it interesting and wondered why that was.
    Thanks..

  • Yeah, but unless you used Merged Profiles for the experiment, you were asking the Kemper to guess where the cabs' sounds ended and amps' sounds began.


    Only Merged or Direct Profiles would be technically-valid for use in your experiment, 'cause they represent the amps to the best of the Kemper's ability and aren't "combination" tones where the amp, cab, mic and preamp are all combined into one Profile (captured as a whole).

  • Ahh .ok. Makes sense.
    So how about this....if you have the MBritt profiles (I have several packs)....and sort them by gain. If you take 2 or 3 that are the same gain, do they sound very very similar? Mine do. But I guess it could just be the cab he uses? It just seems to me the different amps should have a noticeable difference, regardless of the cab used.
    Again..just curious. :) Love the Kemper...been using the DR Z official pack and liking them so far.

  • You can make direct profiles of Helix.


    Then run these direct profiles vs the direct Helix tones (and against each other) and compare.


    Do you still feel kemper amps sound the same to each other?


    I think kemper tends to "homogenize" tones on at least SOME level.


    But conducting that test would shed some light, at least when it comes to direct profiles and what you think about the matter.


    About the ability of kemper to separate cab from amp.. vs merged profiles.. I have a test about that coming to see if it's indeed the case that merged are better compared to just turning cab sim off of studio profile.

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

  • @sogrocks


    I lean toward pre-constructed templates being used inside the KPA, and cab response being generated during profiling, and then EQ matching of sorts (and during refining). So yeah, in that theory it wouldn't surprise me that you'd hear little difference in the amp tone, or rather more specifically the gain structure/tone. But as Dimi said, you need to compare apples and apples in the testing approach.


    Sonic

  • Thanks for the tips guys. Unfortunately the Helix is not here anymore (friend was over with it), so I can't try the direct profile.
    I have tried a Colonial and JCM at the same gain, and they sound very close to me. Could just be me. :). I am using a pair of KRK 8's to monitor.
    I love the MBritt stuff...but just noticed this recently when a buddy was comparing the Helix. I tried with some TopJimi's of the same gain and it was the same result. Pretty darn close. oh well..either way....the Kemper rules. :)

  • Well, to me the Colonial is very much in the Marshall vein - just with more of the "woody", organic mojo I like, so that's not surprising.


    When I said, "... the Colonial's not going to sound like many others, is it?", the only exceptions I had in mind were Marshall-sounding ones. Compare it with a Suhr, /13, Fender, the Rockman or any other non-Marshall / Friedman-style amps and that should be a fairer indication of the situation.


    IMHO, your choices for comparison remind me very much of folks' choosing similar-sounding woods when comparing guitar tones, proclaiming that said material makes little if any difference. Yes, Ash and Alder sound similar, but nothing like Mahogany. Yes, Colonial, Marshall and Friedman sound similar, but nothing like Suhr.

  • Agreed; it depends upon which you're comparing, and as you say, differences are "minimalized" due to their sharing the same or similar signal chains and amp settings during the Profiling process from any given vendor.


    Even without this set of factors, amps sans cabs in general are remarkably similar once overdriven, IMHO. I mean, it's generally a harsh, in-your-face fuzz fest... until a cab is added to carve out a tasty chunk of that full-range nonsense.


    Bottom line is most do sound different from each other, but not hugely-so... IMHO.

  • I had a band in recently with 2 guitarists. They used the same Mesa oversized cab to record with and almost matched the sound to the point you cannot hear the difference. That was with a Peavey 6505 on one side and an Engl Powerball mk1 on the other. Both were on lead channel with gains roughly matched and Maxon 808 boost.


    If the Kemper can be improved in basic tone, I would put that at the very top of the list before niceties like spring reverbs. However, many amps can sound very similar and cabs make more of a difference to the tone.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • so interesting question....


    if you are playing live gigs...so in my case the Kemper through a EAW Redline speaker and then the stereo outs to the FOH...do you use merged profiles or the rigs you can build in the box? I'm getting sounds I like using for example the Britt profiles I have...but I did mess around with the merged ones when I was playing with Rig Manager that come with the unit and they sounded good. I guess I didn't really understand what the merged profiles were all about and when to use them?

  • so interesting question....


    if you are playing live gigs...so in my case the Kemper through a EAW Redline speaker and then the stereo outs to the FOH...do you use merged profiles or the rigs you can build in the box? I'm getting sounds I like using for example the Britt profiles I have...but I did mess around with the merged ones when I was playing with Rig Manager that come with the unit and they sounded good. I guess I didn't really understand what the merged profiles were all about and when to use them?

    It's quite easy:
    Studio profiles: The profile has the cab and mic interaction between amp and cab inside. When you choose another cab to this profile there are influences of the original cab or profiling prozess still in this profile.


    Merged profiles:
    A method to profile and the result is, when you change the cab,the amp sounds like the original amp with no influences of the cab.


    DI profiles: Profile of the pure amp without a cab


    Some say that it is the right way to use merged profiles when you swap the original cab to another cab, or when you play with an power amp and you choose cab sim off. But as statet many times, the difference is subtle and i dont care for that. If it sounds good, it is good. I use so many studio profiles with other cabs and most of them sound fantastic. If you are a purist and you want to drive the pure amp sound with different cabs than go for merged profiles. If you search for a sound that blows you ( personally) away and it doesent matter how to get your special sound, try all.


    It's all a matter of taste.


    I described it with my words. There is a much better and deper description in the manual.


    Cheers
    Fran