Superior Drummer triggering with Roland e-drums

  • Hey all,


    Firstly can i say i have looked about and cant find a lot about the following query, more specifically using e-drums in a live environment and so the only reason i ask on a predominantly guitar based forum is i know there are a few guys on here that aren't just guitar guys and have masses of experience in music as a whole, so here goes....


    I am in a band with my old man and he insists on using e-drums as he hates acoustic! (makes me sick just typing it!) Now as i am originally a drummer this goes against everything i know to be true!, that's not to say i don't see the value in e-drums as a means to practice but i personally cant feel the instrument like i do with acoustic and the only way to describe it is like playing a guitar hero guitar. but i digress......


    the reason i made this thread is because he wants to run his Roland TD-25 in to SD3, this was on my advice as the quality of the sounds on SD3 are far far better than those on the Roland units, even the pricey TD-50KV.


    Is there anyone on who can advise as to what he will need to get the lowest latency signal into a DAW on a windows laptop from the Roland TD-25 unit?
    i have read a lot about using a half decent MIDI controller and the ASIO4ALL drivers for windows to get it running smoothly without jitter, and latency low enough that it wont effect playing the kit live, but i am not clued up enough on this subject at all!


    and also what should he be playing all this through? he currently takes a full PA system to every rehearsal which consists of both tops and bins and a powered desk!
    would a FRFR system i.e the DXR15's be enough to cope with e-drums!


    P.s sorry for the obscenely long post about drums!

  • First of all he doesn't actually need to use a DAW. Superior Drummer 3 comes with a standalone software.
    The Roland TD-25 can be connected via USB-MIDI and trigger the drums. No big deal.
    The laptop he plans to use should be a bit on the higher specs side (especially on the RAM side). The Kit Presets in SD3 can be pretty big on RAM usage. I've already run into presets using 4.5GB.
    SD3 (and its sound libraries) should be installed on an SSD!!


    On a modern laptop there's typically just a limited choice of ports for audio interfaces. The trusted Firewire (for audio) is no more so he'll likely have to stick with USB/USB3 ... or if he's lucky he might have a Thunderbolt port. There's many claims of "lowest latency ever" in marketing of products from all the major brands. To be honest, don't fall for these claims because typically they are only achieved in very specific and uncommon situations. With modern audio interfaces the latency shouldn't be a big issue anymore ... as long as the computer is capable of processing the audio from the SD3 mixer fast enough to go for low buffer size on the interface. A buffer size of 64 at 44.1kHz sample rate should be possible on a decent laptop. And this would give you about 1.5ms latency plus maximum another 0.5ms for DA conversion. Even if it's a total of 3ms latency nobody will "feel" latency at all.

  • so would using USB straight from the Roland into a laptop using the ASIO4ALL drivers be low enough latency or would it be better to get a midi controller i.e something like the MOTU micro lite?


    we don't actually have a laptop yet but a friend of mine bought a laptop about 3 years ago that has a pretty good spec as it was made for gaming it has a 2tb ssd so more than enough to take SD3 and also 32gb of ram with an i7 and he wants to sell it for £500!
    personally i think that's the best option for him laptop wise as to go and get a mac of equivalent spec would cost him significantly more!


    thanks for the advice!

  • Yeah, that equates to only 1 metre's travel, sound-wise.


    It should work (in stand-alone mode) well, in theory. To my way of thinking, the greatest benefit will be the lack of spill between drum elements, boxiness and boom. Should sit beautifully in the mix.

  • First of all, switching to edrums is probably the best choice ever to improve the band´s live sound and also the overall performance. Combined with a digital mixer like the x32, Inear Monitoring and the Kemper playing in band feels like a complete new experience. I could not be happier with this setup.


    Like stated above, make sure the laptop uses SSDs for the system as well as the SD3 libraries. Also make sure that battery of the laptop is still good in case the power suplly fails.


    Using edrums you should consider the lowest possible latencies. RME interfaces will allow for buffer sizes as low as 32. Most RME USB interfaces are pretty expensive. So take a look at the new digiface USB:


    https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_digiface_usb.htm


    You can combine it with an ADAT A/D converter of your choice. This will make it also a super flexible recording setup with up to 32 Inputs.

  • Using edrums you should consider the lowest possible latencies. RME interfaces will allow for buffer sizes as low as 32

    This is exactly what I meant above ... don't fall for this trap of "lower and lower and even lower" ... it ain't working this way. :)
    The audio processing on the computer dictates the buffer size required. It's very unlikely that you can run a massive SD3 drumkit (and mix) stable using these super low buffer settings. ;)



    so would using USB straight from the Roland into a laptop using the ASIO4ALL drivers be low enough latency or would it be better to get a midi controller i.e something like the MOTU micro lite?

    You don't need any of these. You said you want to run the eDrums through Superior Drummer 3. The only thing you need to go into the computer is MIDI to trigger Superior Drummer. Easiest way to go is MIDI via USB. No ASIO4ALL, no buffers, (virtually) no latency to go into the computer/laptop.


    You just need to make sure the way out from the computer is a solid audio interface. Don't even think about using the headphones output :D For audio output I recommend an audio interface that's ASIO compatible (which should be pretty much all of them available). Lots of choice from cheap to super expensive. RME as suggested by tylerhb certainly is a great piece of gear but I'm not sure it's necessary to invest that much just for a proper audio output from the laptop. Focusrite is a popular brand at a much lower price tag than RME for example. Make sure the audio interface has at least 4 configurable outputs (separate from headphones outputs) so you can go stereo out for monitoring and stereo out for FOH.


    If you (or your drummer) wants maximum flexibility, it's a good idea to use an interface that has even more outputs so you can send FOH groups of signals like kick, snare, toms, hihat, overheads separately.

  • thanks for all your replies! a lot of the terminology you are using is hurting my little brain! doesn't help that i'm at work!


    something i forgot to mention but probably should have, is that he isn't flush with cash! he has already shelled out a fair amount for what he already has so ideally i want a relatively cheap means of doing this with usable results! if its straight up not possible then that isn't a problem as i expected it wouldn't be cheap.


    EDIT: based on what you said above @lightbox you could send individual signals from the interface to go to multiple channels on the FOH desk like you would a traditional mic setup?

  • This is exactly what I meant above ... don't fall for this trap of "lower and lower and even lower" ... it ain't working this way. :) The audio processing on the computer dictates the buffer size required. It's very unlikely that you can run a massive SD3 drumkit (and mix) stable using these super low buffer settings. ;)

    Yes you can, in fact i was able to use 32 buffers even on older systems stable with SD2 and metal machinery SDX using RME interfaces. Those kits already took up to 2600 MB of memory. I just installed SD3 and have not tested with Edrums yet, but the memory usage is not that much higher than in SD2. Not any preset was over 3800 MB. So i am confident SD3 will work as well.

  • ok, let me give you 2 shopping lists to facilitate things.
    Before I do, let me quickly distinguish 2 use cases:


    A. The drummer gives Front of House just a stereo out of his Superior Drummer 3 mix.
    Easiest (and cheapest) way to go out with the downside that FoH can't make easy adjustments on an already mixed signal.


    B. The drummer provides Front of House with e.g. 5 separate busses (kick, snare, toms, hihat, overheads)
    This costs a little more for a bigger audio interface but will likely be appreciated by the FOH engineer. Way easier for him to balance and adjust for the PA. :)


    Shopping list A:
    USB cable from TD-25 to laptop ... everybody has one, right?
    USB cable from laptop to audio interface ... everybody has one (or comes with the interface)
    Focusrite Scarlet 6i6 2nd gen ... 242 Euros
    audio cables to monitor speakers
    monitor speakers
    power strip to hookup all the gear


    Shopping list B:
    USB cable from TD-25 to laptop ... everybody has one, right?
    USB cable from laptop to audio interface ... everybody has one (or comes with the interface)
    Focusrite Scarlet 18i20 2nd gen ... 456 Euros
    audio cables to monitor speakers
    monitor speakers
    power strip to hookup all the gear


    House tech should be able to provide the required cables from audio interface to stagebox although it's recommendable to check.

  • ... in fact i was able to use 32 buffers ... So i am confident SD3 will work as well.

    It might or might not. Doesn't depend so much on the amount of samples in RAM but on the amount of effects used in the SD3 (or SD2) mixer. The bottleneck isn't sample streaming but processing. ;)
    For a live setup I would always recommend to not go down to the absolute minimum. 64 samples buffer should be safe and not produce dropouts or artefacts. And the latency can't be felt, promised. The "MIDI IN ->SD3-> Audio Out" setup doesn't have the same roundtrip latency you experience when going "Audio In->DAW->Audio Out".

  • I would recommend getting an audio interface, any audio interface at all (just not too cheap). This will dramatically reduce latency and improve your playing experience. It will also reduce the load on the computer, as it is essentially an external sound card. This will ensure that you don't run out of processing power.


    I would only run USB into computer in a "no other choice" situation. The sound cards on motherboards, even with Asio4All are just not suitable for serious audio processing and believe me, the last thing you would want is some kind of stutter when you are playing live.

  • And the latency can't be felt, promised. The "MIDI IN ->SD3-> Audio Out" setup doesn't have the same roundtrip latency you experience when going "Audio In->DAW->Audio Out".

    This is too general. I habe been doing this for like 15 years or so. The latency of the audio interface always comes on top of the latency from drum hit to MIDI out produced by the module itself. For example ,the Alesis Crimson modules have a native latency of about 12ms, which already is too much. Add another 2ms from the interface and this is unplayable for timing critical stuff. Some Roland modules like the TD-12 are about 6ms, which is a lot better. Each drum brain is different. In our band we don not want any PC or laptops, so we use a 2BOX drum brain which runs all the converted multisamples from Toontrack, BFD, Steven Slate, AD etc. It will not provide all the multichannel stuff and bleeding like SD3 does but it is a very compact and robust system. Plus, the module is very affordable, you just need to add a 32 GB SD Card. We run Kicks, Snares, Toms and Cymbals in strereo pairs into the X32 console for you own IEM mix and then all four pairs are routed out of the X32 to the FOH. Works like a charm.

  • Alesis Crimson modules have a native latency of about 12ms

    I think we're on a totally different road. ;)
    No friggin' way, any MIDI drumkits have a MIDI latency this high. Maybe you're talking audio but that's not necessary in the OP's use case.
    He wants no audio from the module but MIDI to trigger SD3. he also clearly stated that his drummer owns the Roland TD25 so there's no point in suggesting a 2BOX brain ... even less as long as this module (and the Alesis) doesn't support positional sensing which the TD25 and SD3 do support and greatly improve the snare feel.


    Cheers
    Martin

  • based on what you said above @lightbox you could send individual signals from the interface to go to multiple channels on the FOH desk like you would a traditional mic setup?

    Exactly. Superior Drummer allows up to 32 channels (16 stereo pairs) outputs and you can freely route the signals right inside the Superior Drummer's mixer.
    Naturally, all the stock presets are setup for a single Stereo Out but it's quite easy to do custom routing on your own presets. The only "tricky" thing is to provide front of house with these groups separately while the drummer still has a single Stereo Mix of all the drums. But this can be done in the Focusrite Control software. Takes a bit to understand but it's not quite rocket science either.
    I suggested you to go for some "groups" instead of trying to provide FOH with ALL the crazy amounts of channels possible. I think the 5 groups (kick, snare, toms, hihat, overheads) should be just fine. Maybe another channel in case there's some specialty like the unavoidable cowbell or tambourine, haha. :)

  • No friggin' way, any MIDI drumkits have a MIDI latency this high. Maybe you're talking audio but that's not necessary in the OP's use case.

    No, i am talking about pure drum hit to MIDI conversion. I lost the link with a comparion of large number of drum modules, but check this out (sorry, only in german):


    https://www.amazona.de/test-alesis-dm10-pro-kit/7/


    Whether a drum module is newer or older does not not necessarily mean that they do the MIDI comversion faster or slower, it just depends on the model. Old DDrum3 and D4 modules are even faster than the TD-30, though Roland modules mostly are pretty fast, some of them below 5ms. The 2box are 7ms, Some Alesis are over 12. Some cheap Thomann stuff even was nearly 20 ms.

  • No, i am talking about pure drum hit to MIDI conversion

    The linked article is measuring not only MIDI latency but the overall latency from hit to sound ... so it includes the entire processing and DA latency on top of the pure MIDI latency. ;) Also they used a buffer size of 128 samples. On top of that it's 7 years old. We've improved a bit since then, hehe.


    The typical MIDI over USB latency should be somewhere in between 1 - 2ms (at least for the module in question here, TD25)
    Add the 3ms of the entire processing and DA and we end up with ca. 5ms .... and let's grant a tiny bit of latency for the monitor DSP, we'll likely end up at 6ms total which is not an issue for any drummer.
    In a 120bpm song, a latency of 6ms corresponds to less than a 1/1024th note :D

  • The linked article is measuring not only MIDI latency but the overall latency from hit to sound ... so it includes the entire processing and DA latency on top of the pure MIDI latency. ;) Also they used a buffer size of 128 samples. On top of that it's 7 years old. We've improved a bit since then, hehe.
    The typical MIDI over USB latency should be somewhere in between 1 - 2ms (at least for the module in question here, TD25)
    Add the 3ms of the entire processing and DA and we end up with ca. 5ms .... and let's grant a tiny bit of latency for the monitor DSP, we'll likely end up at 6ms total which is not an issue for any drummer.
    In a 120bpm song, a latency of 6ms corresponds to less than a 1/1024th note :D

    No, it has nothing to do with audio


    only the difference between the Mic PAD and the recorded MIDI event is of importance. I measured those myself, and believe me, no drum drum brain in the world has less than 4ms. But probably i could talk this forever. All i say is that adding 2ms to 4ms od module latency is of no concern, but adding those to 10ms or more is critical.

  • Like stated above, make sure the laptop uses SSDs for the system as well as the SD3 libraries.

    Spinner drives are just-fine unless you're relying on quickly loading different kits for different songs in the set. If only one kit is used, it'll sit happily in RAM for the gig, as you'd know, Till.


    Using edrums you should consider the lowest possible latencies. RME interfaces will allow for buffer sizes as low as 32. Most RME USB interfaces are pretty expensive. So take a look at the new digiface USB:

    The new MOTU 828 ES has very-low latency, offers 123dB of dynamic range on its outputs (superb for drums) through practically-the-best conversion chips out there (ESS Sabre32 Ultra DAC), TB and USB connectivity, 60 channels of I/O, huge expansion options and comprehensive onboard mixing and routing for sending the drums to multiple busses, all with processing if need be:



    It could be argued that it's overkill for this situation, but the in-built mixer with 48 inputs, 7 stereo aux busses, 3 groups, 64 network inputs, and DSP effects such as 'verb, 4-band EQ, noise gate and compression could see its being used to bring together the entire band's monitor-mix needs as well.


    The fact that it can be controlled from a mobile 'phone / iPad etc. could be super-handy too.


    The $995 US price tag should be viewed with the possibilities I mentioned in mind.

    You can combine it with an ADAT A/D converter of your choice. This will make it also a super flexible recording setup with up to 32 Inputs.

    Agreed, Till. Same number as with the MOTU.

    If you (or your drummer) wants maximum flexibility, it's a good idea to use an interface that has even more outputs so you can send FOH groups of signals like kick, snare, toms, hihat, overheads separately.

    Hence my MOTU suggestion.

    The spill between drum elements is there and can be used, adjusted or disabled. :)

    Exactly Martin, but the point is that you can disable it completely. Things are generally messy-enough already when it comes to most live gigs, and the ability to run all the drum elements "cleanly" helps overall definition in the mix tremendously, IMHO.

  • WOW you guys smashed this one out of the park! thanks for all the advice from everyone its much appreciated and has helped my understanding of how MIDI works greatly!


    obviously the MOTU you mentioned @Monkey_Man is all singing and all dancing but my old man isn't looking to spend ££££ on gear (unfortunately) i put a basket together on Thomann for him which included what he would need and with the cost of the laptop it came to a tidy £2500, which is not an amount of money he has right now! But at least the information you have all given me/him has made it clear as to what he needs to get the most versatile and best sounding set up!


    is the general consensus that triggering a plugin like SD3 or SSD from e-drums the best way to go?
    I personally hate the Roland drum sounds and would rather spend more money to get the best possible sound!


    FYI the basket was as follows not entirely sure if the interface i selected would be adequate!


    Yamaha dxr15's x2
    Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
    SD3


    plus the laptop which is £500


    i suggested the DXR15's as like i said in the post he take a full PA with him where ever he goes and i inevitably have to carry it!