Real amp v kemper - Tim Pierce

  • Clearly you over react. This is a discussion and no one is Browbeating you, some of us just happen to disagree with you on how significant the differences are and you interpret this as Browbeating LOL, no wonder why you exaggerate the differences between amp and profile also :D

    The internet equivalent to being browbeaten is to have someone repeat themselves ad nauseam over and over and over again, as is happening here. You continually move the goal posts, then when you reach a dead end (like you have here) you passive aggressively sideswipe so as to mock and discredit those you disagree with without having to actually address the points I made head on.


    I don't exaggerate the differences, I merely address their presence while you seek to either deny or rationalize them. But now we've delved into classic projection where you accuse me of being irrational so you don't have to actually make a cognitive argument. You attack your own straw man. I stated a simple objective truth, you exaggerated my position and opinion on the matter. Doesn't matter how many caveats I insert, you only read what you want to read.


    By the way, none of this is actually germane to the question of the KPA's accuracy, which is a debate I see you've now abandoned, per usual.

  • Last time I persoanlly conducted a blind test, I remember you picked the Kemper to be the real amp in all of your guesses. :D:evil:

    Read my edit:

    EDIT: And the point about blind tests, which is getting exhausting to repeat: blind tests can absolutely fool people sometimes. However, that doesn't mean they are identical. Even in the infamous Chapman video they could hear the differences but they just couldn't pick which was which. They were also not familiar with the KPA-type compression in the mids to have their ears tuned to it. It's also why SinMix was pretty much able to pick Kemper out of every blind test thrown at him because he's profiled enough to discern those nuances and hear a tonal footprint. Yet you guys continually want to bring up blind tests as if it proves the point that there's no difference, but it doesn't prove that in the slightest. Even if Uwe were to test Tim and he guessed incorrectly, they would still have the same subtle differences. Why can't you give this subjective postulation a rest?

    And your blind test also didn't include a comparison of the original mic'd amp to the profile. It was 4 independent, stand alone sound samples. You can make an amp sound like the KPA's compressed mids, or jack the tone on a tube screamer to get a similar effect, so the test you gave me didn't actually mean much. It also didn't prove that the profile was identical or indiscernible from the original. Therefore, while interesting, the test doesn't actually say anything other than the subjective interpretation. But we aren't discussing that, we are discussing whether or not the KPA profiles the source tone identically.


    If you can't understand that logic...

  • OP said he thinks there are no differences.


    Also that the video should "shut up doubters".


    Hence @MementoMori (and also my) responses.

  • By this definition, you're browbeating everyone because every time someone posts that the Kemper is amazingly accurate, you and some others have to interject with the same rhetoric.
    So why can't you think of it that in the Kemper Forum, out of all places :D , there happens to be some fans enjoying their Kemper, who are also aware of the insignificant differences you speak of ?( .

    Actually, there are tons of times I read posts from people on here about how much they're loving their KPA and profiling their amps and say nothing. Other times I actually chime in and point them towards profiles that I think are very good and that I use frequently. No browbeating whatsoever despite your earnest attempts at framing it as such. By this point I'm one of the few that will be somewhat vocal about it if prompted since most of the others have been banned. I try to stay constructive an on point, yet I'm greeted with rationalizations and denials, then have my own "expertise" questioned and mocked by a mob of forum members, yet I'm "browbeating" by addressing what should be plainly observable (and indeed technically because Ceddy previously provided the frequency spectrum to showcase this)? Give me a break, dude. At this point I'm convinced you're being purposefully misleading rather than woefully misinformed.


    The reason I chimed into this discussion is because of the "shut the doubters up" attitude. Well, I took exception to that, especially since the profiling in the video wasn't as the OP advertised. Hell, you even tried to pass off that Tim Pierce said they were identical despite saying the opposite :wacko: . All I sought to do was point out that they were not the same but were very close and that should be enough to satisfy people without the need to try and discredit those who acknowledge the differences. But by chiming in and arguing the latter, you force me into the negative position and forced to repeat myself so it appears I'm exaggerated or hating the KPA. It happens every time. It's not what I do or write, it's what you perceive based on cherry-picking things I post. I'll give you some good examples that you've conveniently glossed over:


    Even most of the highly passionate and defensive Kemperites have moved the goal posts to admitting it's not identical, but that it's close enough to not matter, especially in a mix. That's reasonable enough and subjective, so going back to the "there's no difference" argument is tiresome.

    In the video the KPA does get impressively close. I've always maintained that it does more often than not (at least with good mic placement). For a guy like Tim Pierce it's close enough for playing that I'm sure he loves the convenience, and the ability to take all his amps with him on the road in a 15lb box (or at least "90%" of his amps). It's why I still have a KPA despite my frustrations.

    What people confuse is thinking that those of us who openly voice the audible differences means we are seeking to discredit the KPA or say it sucks. Not ever in the slightest. If I thought it sucked I would have sold it by this time. We can be constructive, logically consistent, and speak objectively without the need to rationalize or get defensive.

    And the continual denial and defensiveness that these don't exist or are exaggerated is what keeps this conversation going and keeps "skeptics" looking like they're hating on the KPA despite nothing of the sort.

    Some are so defensive that they react as though they are being personally attacked. We should be able to talk constructively about the differences and still be able to enjoy the KPA. It doesn't have to be perfect, so I'll never understand why people continue to try and make this point.

    But I again go back to the fact that we are not disputing that the KPA can sound great and can get extraordinarily close to a reference tone. Even these professionals will tell you how impressive it is, but a vast majority will still tell you they detect differences.


    P.S. I don't "cry" (what was that about high school again?) about disagreements. In fact, I love them. Few things I love more than a healthy, constructive debate and discussion on different views. But when I'm mischaracterized and subject to straw man conjecture and a whole cadre of logical fallacies, I'll tell you head on and bluntly how poor and useless that logic is, especially when riddled with hypocrisy. But that's sort of how it goes when someone is emotionally invested in a piece of equipment, that any critique is seen as a criticism on themselves and their personage. They take it to heart and then turn the issue to my personality or experiences for which to be judged. That only takes us further from the conversation. People know when they are in a difficult argument and instead of reasoning their thoughts head-on, they figure it's easier to discredit the person as a whole with any tool at their disposal. Nevermind that it actually doesn't prove their point.

  • Brother you know i love you too man, my intention (if you go back and read my posts carefully) is certainly not to highlight that :), i see me putting in bold that i am not saying that your concerns are not valid and too only look at these subjective differences and make sure you question, do they really need to hold me back from being an artist or being creative, plus to use the machine to its potential mean time and make sure your having fun was taken the right way LOL.


    I remember my Ex girlfriend one day arguing for no reason, that i should not fart in public, i said its an involuntary bodily action , and that we should be talking more about gut health which is paramount to mood and the immune system BTW.
    The argument went on for days and what was the point, i still farted in public (not intentionally). My point being


    If Dean's test was able to pass (not saying fool you pass as in a standard) then brother, perhaps you should just consider your looking too much at the negative, remember these differences are always going to be subjective, you can argue till your blue in the face but they are.


    Imagine me ringing up JEFF LOOMIS, and saying , Jeff i went to your gig last night, i put your new album and live recording through a spectrum anal sorry analyzer and all these frequencies are there bro, its nothing like the ENGL amps and 5150 at all, there is this, there is that...you know what Jeff would say? he would say I FART IN PUBLIC TOO!! (superficial not such a big to deal TO HIM)


    To him, now those differences are to you
    fine, i accept that, and its okay :)
    i see me posting this before and saying dont crack the shits also made a difference lol


    Now, why haven't i said , well go work on the algorithm then!!
    Go and warn people, instead i have said this
    If it holds you back , then let it go and move on :)
    what ever you do find peace


    just dont turn into my ex girlfriend who argues for days about nothing
    In the end i got her back , i made her go outside to fart and when she did, i said see you fart in public too!
    I was so happy that day.


    Lastly ill say this, i think if you try you can move past these "differences" and be happy and have fun.
    Not the point Ash blah blah, okay, well i tried ^^


    Cayenne peeper tablets stopped me farting so much in public encase any one wanted to know


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • If Dean's test was able to pass (not saying fool you pass as in a standard) then brother, perhaps you should just consider your looking too much at the negative, remember these differences are always going to be subjective, you can argue till your blue in the face but they are.

    I simply point out the objective truth that the source tone and profile have small differences. There's no reason in my mind to let someone skate with saying things are identical that are objectively not. The differences mattering is subjective, and I don't let it hold me back from using the KPA daily, even in recording at times. The fact that some here get incredulous at the suggestion of anything less than perfection is what keeps the argument persisting and seeming like me or Dimi are pissing on the KPA or exaggerating the critiques. I see it more than people are reading too much into it rather than me focusing too hard.

  • understood :)
    Well I can't eat pumpkin pie because it gives me gas.


    I am joking understood where you and Dimi are coming from. My intention is never to give you guys the shits


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • For all intended purposes the differences are very insignificant and immaterial that they can be ignored. This concept is used in Math, business, life in general. This concept of materiality is intended to facilitate moving forward with a conclusion or a decision.
    I don't see why you view yourself and MM as doubters.


    You both still own the Kemper and use it but take issue with how others perceive how accurate the Kemper is. I mean I' watched the video and I'm probably more of a skeptic than anyone I know.


    If I didn't own the Kemper, I would never believe that it gets as close as in the video. However I understand that for some, it's not close enough even though I think it's silly and for the most part, it really is splitting hairs , of course in my opinion and those who are grateful that such a device was invented in the first place.

    I wont expand in replying because it will be off topic (not that others posts are not) and I may be banned, like before.


    My posts are clear. So is the OP topic. So was @MementoMori posts.

  • :rolleyes: The post was a little tongue in cheek - cool your burners guys.


    Personally I’m not really bothered if it’s 100% the same as long as it sounds great and in my opinion it does (and before that starts another debate, that’s MY opinion).


    I’ve heard shite tubes (and owned a few), as long as the end result is what the user really likes then that is all that matters?


    I think, judging by all the resonses, I chose the incorrect words in the original post. So apologies to all...


    Come on guy play nice, we are all are in the world of playing guitar and music and that’s all that matters. I’ve heard great songs on shit amps so we should be able to make great music on this tool...?


    .......off my soap box.

    Edited 2 times, last by Deej09 ().

  • I’ve heard shite tubes (and owned a few), as long as the end result is what the user really likes then that is all that matters?

    That is what most matters, I wholeheartedly agree. At this point it becomes a tired conversation as much as it's become routine. We've all seen massive amounts of blind tests and comparisons, plenty that make you go, "wow, technology has come an incredible way". The comparison is what exposed me to the KPA and why I bought one, and indeed still have it. It still impresses me routinely even if it's not "perfect" and even if it can frustrate me at times.


    With that being said, I think bigHF summarized it best:

    I will never understand why some people try so hard to find almost scientific proof they purchased the right gear.
    I really don't care whether Tim - who is a great guy and in fact one of THE most respected guitar session masters around LA - likes the kemper or not. He used to not really like it for many years and it didn't matter to me. A few months ago I was in a live q&a on you2.be with him and he wasn't convinced of the digital units up to this point. It didn't matter to me then.


    Now he starts using it and it still doesn't matter to me.


    I have been using it successfully and with great joy since I bought the unit in Jan 2012 and that is all I care about.

  • The question is - why then does it matter to you what other people think at all?

    It doesn't. People talk about stuff they love all the time and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. When it comes to objective vs subjective matters I think it's important to address things rationally, especially when the initial tone that prompted my entry was overly cocksure.


    I don't make it a point to have this conversation in every thread, nor do I have interest in doing so. Far be it from me to tell others who love their gear to love it any less because I may not share the same passion. And to those who come here in frustration that I've experienced, perhaps you haven't noticed that I try and help with solutions and compromises that I've discovered. In the Kemper FB group there have been a number of guys ready to sell their KPA and I've messaged with them about how I learned to live (and sometimes love) certain profiles and features. Some of the guys started to actually enjoy their Kemper's more after that.


    I respond the same way when somebody says something false and dismissive of the KPA as I do when a Kemperite says something false and dismissive.

  • I think MM/Dimi are just trying to not be misunderstood :)


    Sure i could also say why even point it out and why KEEP POINTING IT OUT :)
    ,its only ever going to be relative to the artist that chooses it to be a problem.
    OR it maybe can be a prob for a particular artist. FINE.


    Remember the people saying that there is no difference are always saying this because to them there is not.
    (even if there is dam it).


    But they Dimi/MM want to be accurate and point it out because some (TO THEM) say its no different.
    Where MM/Dimi can hear certain things and are only pointing it out as it relates to THEM.
    Thats fine!! YEP its there!! OK its there , They dont want to be seen as assholes for doing this :)


    I am happy to hear the OP is not concerned with this and the sound is satisfactory to him.
    SEE MY SIGNATURE? :D


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • When you speak to something measurable or scientific, you graduate from opinion to fact. I don't find it constructive for anyone to engage our natural impulse of treating emotional impressions the same as truth, or conversely treat measurable truths as "personal" or "relative truths".

    I respect objectivity and logical consistency more than another persons appeal to confirmation bias.

  • Anyway, no sense running this circle more or further derailing the thread.


    The profiling in the video is still mighty impressive. Especially the Plexi which was crazy close. Great piece of kit the Kemper is, which is why I own one and continue using it and trying to get the best from it despite even my own limitations. :thumbup:


    Would also be great if Tim would share the profiles he made.


    <3