Real amp v kemper - Tim Pierce

  • Some differences are minor, others are not. Regardless, there are plenty of people and companies that would tell you never listen to compliments, only to complaints.


    That being said, plenty of us also talk about what the KPA does extraordinarily well. It just so happens that the more defensive Kemperites don't like hearing any negative feedback, no matter how constructive, that it's all they focus on to try earnestly to disprove or discredit it. To suggest we've sat here just harping on the negatives is silly, but when users here want to cover their ears and deny they exist, or indeed in this instance come at people to "shut them up" unprompted, then you force us in a position to talk about the negatives and makes it seem like it's the only thing we want to talk about.


    And yes, there are places on the site for improvements. Many users have gone there about profiling issues and left with no clearer direction at how to more accurately profile. Even Dimi made all sorts of tests and comparisons that the Kemper team in the end decided wouldn't result in any profiling improvements or changes. But, posts like this and other comparisons, especially when someone gets out their pitchforks and defies logic by denying what plainly exists means you're going to have this discussion all over the place.


    I actually haven't engaged in this kind of chatter in a while, especially since the mods are making a habit of banning users who do, but the OP's attempt to "shut us up" with an "identical" profile that indeed wasn't identical made me feel like I had to address the passive aggressive sideswiping head on. I respect objectivity and logical consistency more than another persons appeal to confirmation bias.

  • Wow sorry guys I was only really making a statement and that the video proved that the sound is very very close to my 50 year old tired ears.


    It wasn’t really an attack on anyone..so apologies if any offence was caused on either camp..


    I stand by my main comment that I love my kemper and you would have to pry it out of my cold dead fingers..

  • What? I've seen people on this very forum call themselves Kemperites. This was in no way shape or form meant to be disrespectful and I'm surprised you would even read it that way.


    ?(:S


    EDIT: I grew up in Wisconsin where we call ourselves Wisconsinites. Were we unwittingly disrespecting ourselves in your view?


    And consider this from Wednesday (sorry to bring you into this, Nicky):

    If I'm not mistaken, this new behaviour has really only increased during the past month or three. Any thoughts on this, fellow Kemperians, Kemperites and Kemperettes

  • Brother , Hey can i get a beer fridge that big? Really i got the cash and you know i am good for it.


    Now You know the mainstream artist that play kemper..??? No really do you? (pssst check the list of artist)
    .i think if you ask them they will say its subjective..high gain artist play kemper..does not hold them back but not the point...


    they never had the same issues, not saying those "issues" are not valid.
    save cracking the shits for later. :)


    What am i saying, is this....dam it i gotta check the Freezer again. :rolleyes:
    what i am saying is this dam it...


    DO THOSE INDIVIDUAL Issues REALLY STOP YOU FROM MAKING MUSIC AND BEING CREATIVE
    AND DAM IT IF IT DOES ARE YOU SURE YOUR NOT BEING TOO CRITICAL???


    Yes Ash they do and we are not, we are just saying to help fix the "prob" :whistling:
    Well okay then. :)


    Fine!!! :thumbsup:
    I just want my fridge dam it.


    Well, shit man, high gain artist are playing the kemper and making music, if there is room for improvement fine
    Just make sure you use the kemper to its full potential mean time. :)


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Edited once, last by ashtweth ().

  • There is a difference between consistent innacuracies in profiling and one's judgement of whether they "matter" or not.


    Both are evaluative judgements. They rely on some sort of "standard" or reference. It's easy to determine what that is in the first case: the source tone.


    In the second case it's much trickier and more "personal".


    For many "what the audience perceives live" is the determining factor; for others there are other, almost equally important "values", so to say. It ranges a lot.


    The fact that there's such a range of course does not by itself mean there can be no factor which one should value less or more after some rational evaluation of "What matters".


    But it's not as self evident as often assumed what the end result is. Lots of things need to be taken into consideration, on different levels.


    And as a result a band may quad track real amps but use kemper live. Another may use kemper for everything. And someome else has reasons to use real amps for everything -- or even another modelling solution (for example someome heavily reliant on "fuzz" tones).


    All that said, this is not to change the fact of whether there are profiling innacuracies or not.

  • Sure understood :) But dont let it hold you back unless really necessary and make sure you use the machine to its potential..
    shit man, at the end of the day, i cant still play /write and not worry so much, if that is not possible for others then fair enough :)
    But try at least. Brother all as i am saying is simple ...the artist that use kemper can get past what ever and have fun, dont forget to please have some fun :)


    okay that enough of my BS :rolleyes::D


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • Sure. Well, I don't know about others, but I've used kpa for fly gigs, sessions, my own recordings.. Plenty of use.

  • Ash, I love you man but you highlight what always happens. When someone wants to demonstrate how identical a profile is and someone else points out how it isn’t in fact identical, the goal posts get moved to talking about how it either fits better in a mix, is more versatile, is close enough, nobody in an audience would notice, etc. Mind you, nobody denies any of this.


    If it’s suddenly not important to focus on the accuracy of the profile, then why is his critique only reserved for those who hear differences and point them out? I’ve yet to see anyone tell the “identical profile” posters not to worry about the accuracy and just play guitar. Indeed, people instead chime in to agree and gush. But I get why, because they assume a position that people here agree with and like.


    If my pointing out profiling differences is a waste of time, then pointing out profiling accuracy is equally so. You should tell them to just play guitar, as well, and not focus on such trivial matters. :P

  • With regards to the "Tim Pierce" YouTube video, that is the subject of this thread, and originally posted by @Deej09 (thank you for that, Deej)...


    I am still a bit perplexed as to why Uwe Bossert never once put a "challenge" to Tim Pierce, by asking him which amp was which. I mean, there was a bunch of opportunities, but Uwe simply shouted out what he was doing, and what amp was being played through, each and every time made a switch. Given the rather perplexed (i.e., happily perplexed) expression on Tim Pierce's face, as he played and compared the resulting profiles with the Reference Amp, I have strong suspicion that Tim would not have been able to call out which was the KPA profile and which was the RA, with any degree of accuracy and consistency.


    In fact, there was an especially opportune time to do this, after the initial profile of the Divided by 13 amp was not completely convincing to Tim. Mr. Bossert proceeded to refine the profile, and the resulting refined profile seemed to be spot on. Again, simply observing Tim Pierce's reaction while playing the refined profile and the corresponding RA, speaks volumes. Nevertheless, it was a perfect moment for Uwe to throw down the "Kemper Challenge" at Tim.




    For the record, I of course realize this wasn't a situation in which someone was trying to "sell" Tim Pierce on the KPA. It is entirely possible that Uwe and Tim felt that adding a "challenge" aspect to the video would have been too "promotional", or made it come across as a bit of marketing -- versus a simple chronicle of two friends getting together in a home studio to profile a bunch of sweet tube amps.


    Cheers,
    John

  • Well that should shut the doubters up - no difference to me


    I love my kemper and this proves why...


    https://youtu.be/3OiTBwdGWoU

    I love my Kemper and I use it 90% of the time. Don't know what to tell you, if you do not hear a difference though!


    I will never understand why some people try so hard to find almost scientific proof they purchased the right gear.
    I really don't care whether Tim - who is a great guy and in fact one of THE most respected guitar session masters around LA - likes the kemper or not. He used to not really like it for many years and it didn't matter to me. A few months ago I was in a live q&a on you2.be with him and he wasn't convinced of the digital units up to this point. It didn't matter to me then.


    No he starts using it and it still doesn't matter to me.


    I have been using it successfully and with great joy since I bought the unit in Jan 2012 and that is all I care about.

  • So are you saying in this video when Mr. Pierce himself said they sounded the same, to you they don't sound the same because there are very minor subtle differences that can be heard and identified if you're listening on good studio monitors but most professionals can't tell which is which in a blind test due to how close they are.


    We're not talking about other threads or other videos? We're talking about this video in the firsts post. Are you disputing that the Kemper sounds the same?

    At no point in the video did Tim Pierce say they sounded the same so your whole premise is already invalidated. In fact, the whole prelude discusses how the KPA is great for convenience, but reiterated several times he prefers real amps and uses them 100% of the time at home. Also mentioned preferring the true high end of an amp. That being said, he was obviously impressed, even said it was "great" at least once, with what the KPA was capable of despite at times noting they sounded different. So why isn't that enough? Why must we bang on about how "identical" it is?


    And you're again moving the goal posts in the most predictable fashion. Every time this question comes up, we get inundated with cherry picked professionals to testify. Yet the people here are quick to dismiss professionals who don't like or use the KPA. Nevermind them, let's just focus on the ones who confirm our bias.


    But I again go back to the fact that we are not disputing that the KPA can sound great and can get extraordinarily close to a reference tone. Even these professionals will tell you how impressive it is, but a vast majority will still tell you they detect differences. At the end of the day they may not be critical and may get disguised in a mix. In fact, plenty here say they prefer the KPA because it's tighter and fits better into a mix (if that doesn't tell you there are differences, I don't know what will). Why isn't that good enough? Why do we have to deal with being browbeaten into submission by people telling us it's identical, then move the goal posts to disregard and rationalize the objective truth that it's not?


    Am I disputing in this video that they sound the same? Yes, I am. They are different in my studio monitors, they are different on my shitty mac speakers, they are different in the shitty headphones I use at work. I've listened to this video on all 3. The closest to my ears was the Plexi, which was very, very, very close.


    EDIT: And the point about blind tests, which is getting exhausting to repeat: blind tests can absolutely fool people sometimes. However, that doesn't mean they are identical. Even in the infamous Chapman video they could hear the differences but they just couldn't pick which was which. They were also not familiar with the KPA-type compression in the mids to have their ears tuned to it. It's also why SinMix was pretty much able to pick Kemper out of every blind test thrown at him because he's profiled enough to discern those nuances and hear a tonal footprint. Yet you guys continually want to bring up blind tests as if it proves the point that there's no difference, but it doesn't prove that in the slightest. Even if Uwe were to test Tim and he guessed incorrectly, they would still have the same subtle differences. Why can't you give this subjective postulation a rest?