Need help making tone/feel more believable w/ 4x12

  • Hi guys, I am getting monstrous, beautiful tone through any PA… so the powered Kemper is an awesome tool for my gigging…
    But ... at home, I play through various old Marshall / Bogner 4×12 greenback cabinets and I am really struggling to get a good tone similar to the way a real amplifier sounds through these cabinets… I do realize that most profiles are not made with greenbacks but I am hoping I can at least get close to what I should be feeling/hearing…
    I have brought down the 'definition' in most profiles which helps quite a bit and I have added some 'clarity' which also helps quite a bit, but I am getting a sharpness, penetrating low-end and high-end, I guess the best way to explain it will be when I am 'chugging', it is 'doinking'. There is lots of low-end, it's just too sharp and not chuggy like a real tube amplifier should sound through a 4×12. The low-end is very 'tubby' and not fat and tight… LOL... how to find the right words to explain…
    OK ... instead of a nice 'tube chug feel' when I am playing, it is too
    penetrating and sharp... The attack is a ' brittle penetrating doink' instead of a 'fat warm chug'.
    I have tried everything in the amp section, (lower definition and add clarity helps, bias and sag do not help at all) regular EQ and monitor EQ… my last hope is the studio EQ, does anyone have some experience they can share with me because I don't understand the studio EQ at all, I found it and pulled it up and I understand how to add it to a rig, but if someone could give me some direction on where to set certain things, I would greatly appreciate it!
    Keith

  • Make sure you are using Monitor Out with Global Cab disabled.


    I'm using a Mesa Cab with Vintage 30s and I'm very pleased with the results. I have everything from JCM to Rectifier profiles and beyond I'm using with great results.

  • You will never get the same feeling until you use a tube power amp. Maybe you will get close at some point but the huge round sound you get with tube amps you can only get it with kemper & tube power amp.

  • You will never get the same feeling until you use a tube power amp. Maybe you will get close at some point but the huge round sound you get with tube amps you can only get it with kemper & tube power amp.

    Yes, you are right Mike… one thing I don't understand is that during the profiling process when I A/B (ref/Kemp), tone and the feel are identical, but when I pull the new profile up in browse it is nowhere near even close ...
    I guess I should find out if there something wrong before I make any decisions ... I guess I will open up a service ticket just to make sure,

  • I have found a somewhat fix to the tone through 4×12 cabinets.
    … this seems to help a bit in taking out those high mid frequencies that are unpleasant and makes my green back 4×12 cabinets sound much more realistic ONLY with ‘direct profiles or merged profiles’ of course… if you are using ‘studio’ profiles through a 4×12 cabinet, good luck, you are on your own… make sure to disable cabinet when using a merged profile…


    **Studio EQ after amp**
    (Top right-hand side of kemper, yellow,)
    *Mid gain -3 to -5 DB…(to your taste)
    *Frequency 3160,
    *Q factor 5
    *Mix 100%
    *Lw-cut 80
    *High cut 8500
    … Everything else in the studio EQ leave at <0> DB at the left of the screen . After doing this, you might have to do some subtle EQ changes, on the front of Kemper… Let me know what you guys think!

  • I got to compare direct profile with real Bogner tonight at healthy volumes and it still 20% away from being real… :(
    Now, I am strictly talking about 4×12 cabinet tone…
    Kemper sounds real good through a PA. And it beats carrying cabinets and amplifiers to gigs…
    But,
    I will not be selling any of my amplifier collection just yet

  • My 2 cents:


    The kemper isnt a tube amp.


    To drive the kpa with a tube power amp and a real cab isnt the intention to use the kpa. A tube poweramp wil color the sound of every rig. This is real because a have had a mesa boogie 2x12 V30 powerd with a rocktron velocity 300. The rocktron 300 has a special tube simulation cirquit which colors the sound.


    I sold the rocktron and bought a linear poweramp. Better results but nearly every rig sounds like the same because of using this one cab.


    Finaly i sold the poweramp and the cab and bought a realy good frfr. That and some experience with profiles cabs and eq parameters where the gamechangers for me.


    With this equipment i can do powerful recordings ( hear it on soundcloud, link under my signature),
    I have more than enough power for rehearshal with my rcf 10 sma frfr and I have an awesome sound at bedroom level with my rookit rp6 g3 monitors.


    Cheers
    Frank

  • I got to compare direct profile with real Bogner tonight at healthy volumes and it still 20% away from being real… :(
    Now, I am strictly talking about 4×12 cabinet tone…
    Kemper sounds real good through a PA. And it beats carrying cabinets and amplifiers to gigs…
    But,
    I will not be selling any of my amplifier collection just yet


    Did you buy a new di box?

  • Hey Mike, I have purchased four… I took three back…The countrymen type 85 is definitely the best of the bunch… And I have borrowed two other ones from studios, I forget the name of them but theyre passive heavy ones… So I have tried six...
    Countryman type 85 is definitely the clearest and best DI box for anyone looking to improve their profiling. It definitely got me the best results with any of my amplifiers…
    Hey, Eltzejupp, I have the powered unit head and I am just running direct profiles thru 4×12 cabinets…
    There are no tubes or power amps or anything else involved except for the amplifiers I am trying to profile! Cheers brother…
    :thumbup:

  • Hey Mike, I have purchased four… I took three back…The countrymen type 85 is definitely the best of the bunch… And I have borrowed two other ones from studios, I forget the name of them but theyre passive heavy ones… So I have tried six...
    Countryman type 85 is definitely the clearest and best DI box for anyone looking to improve their profiling. It definitely got me the best results with any of my amplifiers…
    Hey, Eltzejupp, I have the powered unit head and I am just running direct profiles thru 4×12 cabinets…
    There are no tubes or power amps or anything else involved except for the amplifiers I am trying to profile! Cheers brother…
    :thumbup:

    Hi Squarehead,


    this is the point. Kpa powerhead to one 4x12 with cab sim off. With this combination imho nearly every profile ( at the same gainstage) sounds equal.


    For me the biggest point of the kpa are the versatile cabs. I use an unpowered kpa with an active frfr and finaly i am very happy with it. A good friend of mine plays also a kpa with a power amp inside. He played it wit a 4x12 Marshal. He changed to two powered frfr ( main outs stereo to 2 frfr) , if you have the chance to test a combination with frfr, please do it. It's another soundworld.

  • Ok, thanks, Eltzejupp, Oh boy… More money, but you aren’t the first person that’s mentioned this… other folks have told me the same thing.
    I will think about it, when I gig I always use in ear monitors, 90% of the time anyways…
    I guess I will keep using real amplifiers at home through 4×12 cabinets…
    I was really hoping I could get realistic tones from the powered Kemper through 4×12 cabinets…
    I guess not…

  • Ok, well, so the signal chain is not the same. You are using the kemper's power stage vs the tube power stage. No, that will not sound or feel the same. Tube power amps have their own thing going on. Kemper solid state power amp is not going to offer the same experience.


    That's not really a "fault" of kemper (at least I wouldn't say so, unless they were planning to innovate greatly with their power amp)


    I've used kemper with a fryette power station. That brings back much of the feel. Of course, then you are moving a bit further away from the profiled tone, but this is a relatively (I say relatively) flat power section for such tube amps nonetheless.


    A user did this video with it..


  • I have also used that fryette station while comparing direct profiles to real amp. I wouldn't say it doesn't color the tone. However, because it's a tube power stage -- and a good one while at that -- it does help give back what one generally expects from tube amps put through guitar cabs. That even includes power stage distortion, which kpa has issues profile along with preamp gain.


    Highly recommended for me. When I tested against kemper solid state power stage it was game over, for my own taste, as someone used to loud tube amps :) Of course now... this costs relatively much.. And i can understand not wanting to spend so much more money after getting kemper.

  • Also, here is something you may want to try.. Profile one of your tube amps -- direct profile (you could also try doing this with only the preamp if possible). Then run that profile through the same amp's power section only, by-passing preamp, through the guitar cab.


    Then compare to kemper's power amp through the same cab.


    If you feel the tube power stage (even double coloration included) gives back some of what you are missing, I'd think you are on the correct track and that something like a Fryette can help even more.. considering how it's designed.


    Cheerios and have a fine week ;)

  • Thank you, brother! I was really hoping… I guess I was dreaming, that the KPA would capture the power amplifier From the tube amplifier that I was profiling and translate that Tone and feel to a 4×12 cabinet…
    I guess this ain’t going to happen…

  • I don't blame you, considering the rhetoric of "omg I bought kemper/axe and sold all my 57938257239 amps" :)


    Impression can be given that there is no application for, say, a mesa head with a particularly designed power stage hitting a cab a certain way.