Amazing tone FOH, but horrific through IEM’s

  • Because listening through a speaker at distance is different to catching the sound right next to your ear. It is the equivalent of standing a few meters off axis from a 4x12, or having your ear right next to the speaker. Of course it will be bright and nasty sounding that close. If you doubt the effect, try (at a reasonable level to listen to your favourite distorted guitar sound with your ear next to the speaker.

    And why going through the headphone for stereo, using the space effect and pure cabinet lessons that effect.


  • And why going through the headphone for stereo, using the space effect and pure cabinet lessons that effect.

    I don't thing stereo or space would diminish the problem, but pure cab takes away some of the problem because it is reducing harsh frequencies. This brings its own problem though, because you will be affecting the front of house again, unless it can be assigned to the headphone output only.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • Because listening through a speaker at distance is different to catching the sound right next to your ear. It is the equivalent of standing a few meters off axis from a 4x12, or having your ear right next to the speaker. Of course it will be bright and nasty sounding that close. If you doubt the effect, try (at a reasonable level to listen to your favourite distorted guitar sound with your ear next to the speaker.

    I'm not sure that's right. PA Speakers and IEMs are designed to accurately replicate the sounds they are fed within their intended operating parameters. Meaning PA speakers and IEMs both replicate a targeted frequency response curve within their application. Simply holding your head up to a PA speaker does not replicate what an IEM delivers to your ear.

  • I'm not sure that's right. PA Speakers and IEMs are designed to accurately replicate the sounds they are fed within their intended operating parameters. Meaning PA speakers and IEMs both replicate a targeted frequency response curve within their application. Simply holding your head up to a PA speaker does not replicate what an IEM delivers to your ear.

    No, but you never hold your head against a PA speaker and the distance and indirect sound take the edge off.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • So, a number of posts back:

    I tried this last Sunday, and BINGO! What a wonderful improvement. I just kept my guitar centered and panned the other instruments and voices. I had always know that this could be done on the AH ME-1, but never bothered to try it...lazy, I guess. Anyway, I have high quality in-ears, 64Audio, and now I am really happy with the whole IEM experience. So, Thank you @JohnL1974!

  • No, but you never hold your head against a PA speaker and the distance and indirect sound take the edge off.

    I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I'm saying listening through IEMs is not the same as listening to a PA speaker next to your ear, and therefore is not a relevant reason for IEMs to sound harsh.

  • I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I'm saying listening through IEMs is not the same as listening to a PA speaker next to your ear, and therefore is not a relevant reason for IEMs to sound harsh.

    Maybe the best thing to say is that I have just completed a tour where I am very happy with the sound out front. I also had an inspiring sound to play with in ears by using a separate eq to get rid of harsh frequencies. If you find an equally good solution using a different method, that is good too.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • Maybe the best thing to say is that I have just completed a tour where I am very happy with the sound out front. I also had an inspiring sound to play with in ears by using a separate eq to get rid of harsh frequencies. If you find an equally good solution using a different method, that is good too.

    I'm not trying to be difficult, but was trying to clarify that a signal played through different audio sources is likely not the issue (otherwise, listening to a recorded CD through speakers and IEMs would exhibit the same effect).


    I think how your FOH board, monitor board, and IEM system treat the signal has way more to do with the IEM experience than the difference between listening through PA speakers or IEMs. I have the opposite challenge you have, which is most of the time, Kemper sounds amazing in my IEMs (sent from FOH stereo bus to personal mixers on stage), but a bad, or less skilled FOH tech, does a poor job out front.


    I commend you for finding an interesting and different solution for your situation, and one that may help others. That's very cool! 8)

  • I'm not trying to be difficult, but was trying to clarify that a signal played through different audio sources is likely not the issue (otherwise, listening to a recorded CD through speakers and IEMs would exhibit the same effect).
    I think how your FOH board, monitor board, and IEM system treat the signal has way more to do with the IEM experience than the difference between listening through PA speakers or IEMs. I have the opposite challenge you have, which is most of the time, Kemper sounds amazing in my IEMs (sent from FOH stereo bus to personal mixers on stage), but a bad, or less skilled FOH tech, does a poor job out front.


    I commend you for finding an interesting and different solution for your situation, and one that may help others. That's very cool! 8)

    No offence taken and I know it is a very subjective thing. I did had the same problem with a Rocktron Prophesy and an IR player that sounded good to foh and horrible on in ears. Maybe part of it is the Shure SE215s that have an unnecessary top end boost, but the rest of the mix sounds fine. I would also qualify that the majority of the problem is high gain profiles on any device.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • Ever considered to use headphones instead of IEM's? Like Paul Gilbert and Brad Delson. Looks a bit goofy but I'm going to try this. Just ordered a Direct Sound EX-29 headphone. I was looking for a Telefunken TPH-29, which I use in the studio regularly, but it seems that the TPH-29 is made by
    Direct Sound and it is nothing more than a rebranded EX-29.

  • What we really need is the possibility to put a studio eq on the headphone output.

    I've been watching this thread with interest and can relate to it. Intially i thought its down to poor IEMs but only to a point. My foh and wedge sound is great but the iem, fed from the kpa headphone out, is harsh on the more overdriven sounds. An EQ on the headphone out would be a great addition. (Perhaps a limiter too to protect the user from an damaging levels or nasty peaks.)
    Im looking at making a simple low-pass filter (not unlike the tone control on a guitar) to put on my headphone output to combat the issue. As the "rest of the band" mix doesnt come from this source it will only be the kpa sound that has its high-frequencies tamed.
    Anyone have any suggestions or comments on this approach?

  • I've been watching this thread with interest and can relate to it. Intially i thought its down to poor IEMs but only to a point. My foh and wedge sound is great but the iem, fed from the kpa headphone out, is harsh on the more overdriven sounds. An EQ on the headphone out would be a great addition. (Perhaps a limiter too to protect the user from an damaging levels or nasty peaks.)Im looking at making a simple low-pass filter (not unlike the tone control on a guitar) to put on my headphone output to combat the issue. As the "rest of the band" mix doesnt come from this source it will only be the kpa sound that has its high-frequencies tamed.
    Anyone have any suggestions or comments on this approach?

    Great idea and I found this simple filter before settling on an old graphic eq I found in the studio.


    http://broughtonaudio.bigcartel.com/product/low-pass-filter

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • My IEMs sound horrible sometimes too, but I know why mine sound bad. For me, and many IEMs, the input impedance is about 32 ohms. Your headphone amp must have a source (output) impedance that is at minimum, 8 times less than the earphones. That means the output impedance of the headphone amp for my IEMs must be 4 ohms or lower. Many high-end HP amps are now advertising near-zero out impedance just for this reason. If the output impedance is too high, you will have reduced bass, shrill highs and a totally imbalanced frequency response plus phase issues. Many HP amps have output impedance as high a a few hundred ohms! Works for your old phones from yesteryear, but not your IEMs.


    It's possible I am way off for your situation, but for me, it's a fact. There is lots of info about it on the web.


    Anyway, I hope it helps or if not, at least informative,
    Mark

  • I know I am not going to get that huge fat sound out of my IEM's like I do through the FOH. I always tell the soundman to roll back the highs and flatten it out as mush as possible so I can get a sound I can work with for the night. The clean always sounds good but like everyone else its the higher gain sounds that sound this or fizzy if you don't EQ. Before I turn on my IEM's I always listen to my guitar through the FOH first to make sure it sounds good and I don't think I have ever been disappointed.


    But reading the threads on the forum everyone at some point has or had sound issues with their speaker cab, FRFR or IEM until they worked it out. I am luck enough to have my KPA always hooked up to a PA at home so I know exactly what the FOH sound is and when I audition other profiles. I test out my IEM's by adjusting the monitor send EQ until I get a sound that is pleasing. But again I always seem to have to tell the soundman to cut back the high end every time.

  • I know I am not going to get that huge fat sound out of my IEM's like I do through the FOH. I always tell the soundman to roll back the highs and flatten it out as mush as possible so I can get a sound I can work with for the night. The clean always sounds good but like everyone else its the higher gain sounds that sound this or fizzy if you don't EQ. Before I turn on my IEM's I always listen to my guitar through the FOH first to make sure it sounds good and I don't think I have ever been disappointed.


    But reading the threads on the forum everyone at some point has or had sound issues with their speaker cab, FRFR or IEM until they worked it out. I am luck enough to have my KPA always hooked up to a PA at home so I know exactly what the FOH sound is and when I audition other profiles. I test out my IEM's by adjusting the monitor send EQ until I get a sound that is pleasing. But again I always seem to have to tell the soundman to cut back the high end every time.

    Yep. The dreaded case of "ice pick in the ear" syndrome ;)