Commercial profiling - seeking inputs

  • Curious to know how you evaluate commercial profilers. Based on clips? Soloed tone or in a mix? Based on free samples? Price of profiles?


    What do you do when you find a pack didn't live up to the hype or the clips?


    More questions: how many profiles make a pack? I noticed some sellers use several mics. Does that help your decision? Or do you not care if it's captured with a sm57 as long as it's authentic? Direct, studio and merged profiles better?


    Also, does the method of capturing a profile aid your decision? Or could you not care if a virgin was sacrificed during the profiling process to get a good tone?


    I've been thinking I could do some really killer profiles of the amps I've got. Cleans, crunch, high gain, drop tuned, etc.


    I recently did one called Christmas Clean on the rig exchange. Add a hyper chorus and a reverb and it sounds like the intro to Pull Me Under by Dream Theater (wish I could provide a clip, but my recording interface is down).


    At any rate, I'd be making some clips of the kinds of profiles I'd be selling. But if clips aren't sufficient, I could offer more samples. I know some sellers offer "mix ready" profiles. Is that the way to go? Or just authentic tones of an amp, leaving the mixing to whoever is using it in any kind of mix?

  • Curious to know how you evaluate commercial profilers. Based on clips? Soloed tone or in a mix? Based on free samples? Price of profiles?

    Based on all of the above :) Mostly soloed tone with regards to clips, though.


    What do you do when you find a pack didn't live up to the hype or the clips?

    Get disappointed and less likely to buy from the seller


    More questions: how many profiles make a pack? I noticed some sellers use several mics. Does that help your decision? Or do you not care if it's captured with a sm57 as long as it's authentic? Direct, studio and merged profiles better?

    How many profiles a pack? Very difficult to answer. I think it's nice with small packs (maybe 6-10 pieces), but only insofar as they hit my tastes. Browsing through a large number is tiresome, but better than the alternative if there are NO profiles that match my tastes.
    Quality over quantity - but tastes differ, which is why a large pack is in SOME ways preferable. If they are diverse enough.


    Regarding mics: It MAY influence my decision, I judge the profiles on their own merit. I don't care if they are all captured with an sm57 or other "cheap" mic if the tones are there. If I see more mics, it can either mean that there are more diverse tones in there (which can be good), or it can be useless marketing (if the tones AREN'T there). Sometimes the SM57 can be a bit harsh (especially when coupled with V30 speakers) - in my opinion.
    I really don't care about "expensive" mics, the tones are what counts.
    Also, I often get suspicious if there are "too many" mics listed. Do you really need 5 mics to capture a single profile?


    I'd much rather that the seller concentrate on getting just one or two mics to work optimally with the amp, settings and cab in question, rather than spending the majority of the time setting up, getting 5 mics in phase etc etc.


    I'd also love to see profile packs where each profile is made from scratch - dial in the amp for a certain sound, THEN put the mics up where they represent that sound the best. And then start over -rather than saying "Now the mics are all in place, let's play with the settings on the amp and make more profiles of this mic setup".


    I prefer studio or merged profiles, as I don't use an external cab.



    Also, does the method of capturing a profile aid your decision? Or could you not care if a virgin was sacrificed during the profiling process to get a good tone?


    I don't care about any wizardry. I also don't care about outboard gear etc etc. Get the amp to sound great - then get the mic(s) setup to capture that. Done. Use the kemper only, use a decent preamp/mixer, I don't care. Don't use something that colours the tone in a bad way, of course. But I don't care a lot about whether a neve or API was used. A preamp is only for the final 2% of the tone, get it right in all the other places instead.


    I know some sellers offer "mix ready" profiles. Is that the way to go? Or just authentic tones of an amp, leaving the mixing to whoever is using it in any kind of mix?

    Mix ready is mix specific. Of course, so is guitar tone. I don't want mix ready, I just want something that sounds good without too much poking out at any frequency. Like, bottom end thump is great, just as long as it isn't excessive. Profiles should have their own character - the character of the amp - not the character of some undefined mix. Leave mixing for the DAWs.





    Hope my subjective opinion helps - or stirs some discussion :)

  • Regarding mics: It MAY influence my decision, I judge the profiles on their own merit. I don't care if they are all captured with an sm57 or other "cheap" mic if the tones are there. If I see more mics, it can either mean that there are more diverse tones in there (which can be good), or it can be useless marketing (if the tones AREN'T there). Sometimes the SM57 can be a bit harsh (especially when coupled with V30 speakers) - in my opinion.
    I really don't care about "expensive" mics, the tones are what counts.
    Also, I often get suspicious if there are "too many" mics listed. Do you really need 5 mics to capture a single profile?


    I'd much rather that the seller concentrate on getting just one or two mics to work optimally with the amp, settings and cab in question, rather than spending the majority of the time setting up, getting 5 mics in phase etc etc.


    I'd also love to see profile packs where each profile is made from scratch - dial in the amp for a certain sound, THEN put the mics up where they represent that sound the best. And then start over -rather than saying "Now the mics are all in place, let's play with the settings on the amp and make more profiles of this mic setup".



    Thanks, Michael.



    Guys, as far as the mics bit: While I understand that mics can have quite a lot of impact on the quality of a guitar captured on a recording, what I am wondering is "What would qualify as the most accurate profile out of a bunch of profiles captured with several mics?"


    On one hand, the different mics are like different flavours. But does the mic being used detract from the "authenticity" of the profile? In that respect, I think somehow it must, at least insofar as being "accurate". Heck, it may sound good or even better, but accurate? Out of all those mics, only one is likely to accurate in capturing the profile.


    In that respect, I am wondering if there can be a trade-off with using less mics in return for more profiles captured in more mic positions and with more settings.



    Also, on Michael's suggestion that all profiles are made from scratch, I think it's a good idea! What do other users think? Is there a sweet spot for a speaker that doesn't change? Or does it change depending on the tones that are being fed into it?


    Based on that quandary, I'm thinking that capturing profiles from more close miced positions may throw up some interesting results.

  • Even if you use your childhood's "My First Sony" microphone, the profile will be "accurate". Because you get exactly that sound.
    What I'm trying to say ... there is no "accurate" sound ever to be recorded. It's your choice which color you like, prefer, consider the most useful. Basically every single microphone has its strengths and its flaws. Make the choice based on your taste and then keep your fingers crossed that potential buyers will bond with your taste ;)

  • Curious to know how you evaluate commercial profilers. Based on clips? Soloed tone or in a mix? Based on free samples? Price of profiles?


    I check out some clips, but mostly free samples. Price, of course, has a bearing.


    What do you do when you find a pack didn't live up to the hype or the clips?


    I've had this happen to me. I posted my findings, but soon realized that it really falls on deaf ears.


    More questions: how many profiles make a pack? I noticed some sellers use several mics. Does that help your decision? Or do you not care if it's captured with a sm57 as long as it's authentic? Direct, studio and merged profiles better?


    I never really worried about the number of profiles in a pack. To be honest, I probably find 1-3 profiles that I really like. The rest I might revisit later on. The mic depends on the amp. Sometimes, the SM57 gives a very thin sound.


    Also, does the method of capturing a profile aid your decision? Or could you not care if a virgin was sacrificed during the profiling process to get a good tone?


    The method has no bearing at all. If it's good, it's good.


    I recently did one called Christmas Clean on the rig exchange. Add a hyper chorus and a reverb and it sounds like the intro to Pull Me Under by Dream Theater (wish I could provide a clip, but my recording interface is down).

    I'll have to check that profile out. Thanks

  • Even if you use your childhood's "My First Sony" microphone, the profile will be "accurate". Because you get exactly that sound.
    What I'm trying to say ... there is no "accurate" sound ever to be recorded. It's your choice which color you like, prefer, consider the most useful. Basically every single microphone has its strengths and its flaws. Make the choice based on your taste and then keep your fingers crossed that potential buyers will bond with your taste ;)

    Elaborating a bit - as soon as you put a mic on the cab, it's not authentic to the cab in its whole anymore. Think of it as a fairly narrow flash light. You shine it on the cab - and where the beam hits, that's what you're hearing.

  • Even if you use your childhood's "My First Sony" microphone, the profile will be "accurate". Because you get exactly that sound.
    What I'm trying to say ... there is no "accurate" sound ever to be recorded. It's your choice which color you like, prefer, consider the most useful. Basically every single microphone has its strengths and its flaws. Make the choice based on your taste and then keep your fingers crossed that potential buyers will bond with your taste ;)


    I think you're contorting what I said waaaay to far and being difficult!


    If recording was that simple, why do you think anyone pays money for quality mics and other gear. "My First Sony"? Please try and be serious ;)


    Elaborating a bit - as soon as you put a mic on the cab, it's not authentic to the cab in its whole anymore. Think of it as a fairly narrow flash light. You shine it on the cab - and where the beam hits, that's what you're hearing.


    I'm not convinced that's the way recording works at all and that's not what "sound reproduction" implies in recording either. I am absolutely convinced that I can capture my voice on a computer or a basic recorder, for example. It sounds EXACTLY like me, as if I was saying something right there. You can be fooled into thinking someone is speaking by a recording.


    The same thing applies to a guitar amp and cabinet being mixed up. Or a drum kit. Or anything. The mic used and the technique used will definitely have a bearing. You could easily mic up a guitar cabinet with more than one mic. It's just been decided that for recordings, you don't need the whole cabinet, just the sweet spot.


    For a profile on the other hand, do you want a sweet spot? Or do you want the whole sound? Not saying I can do it, but someone can sure as hell capture an amp and a 4x12 just like it sounds in real life. Perhaps it takes more than one mic. Or perhaps it doesn't.


    After all, what's the sweet spot on an amp to an audience 10 feet away? Hopefully the same sweet spot where you're micing it up.


    If you heard a real guitar and amp versus a recording in a blind test in two different rooms, you could be fooled into wondering which one is the recording and which one is the real guitar and amp.


  • Thanks, man. What do you find are your favourite mics when it comes to profiles?


    Do let me know what you think about the profile. What would you like from that profile with respect to your setup. Note the gain on that sucker! Right at the bottom, I have no idea why it profiled like that, but it's an ultra-clean sound. I like to think it totally smashes some of the stuff that came stock with the Kemper, which I'm hoping is a sign I'm on the right track.

  • For me, samples are big. Gives me an idea of how good the profilers ear is, or how close their "personality" is to mine. It's possible that people make good stuff but if they share their "throwaways" as freebies, I'm not usually inspired by them and will pass. I'm also not a tweaker, so if a profile isn't tantalizingly close, I'm likely to just continue looking elsewhere.


    As far as my preferences for gain profiles:

    • Dynamics and articulation. I don't djent, so I want to actually hear the notes ring out when I hit a chord (think more Opeth) while also being able to dig deep and feel the thump of the mutes. Very few profiles I've found can accomplish this. Lots of profiles that have really great clarity are flat and lack "life" when I'm performing with them. Likewise, if they have thick mutes, chordal playing just turns into noise.
    • Bright profiles, though there's a fine line between "bright and balanced" and "bright and grainy". Too much trebly turns into ice-picks in my ears. ReampZone often suffers this, at least in the samples I've tried (though he has a couple on RE that are ok). Dark profiles just don't work for me (I'm looking at you, Diezel).
    • I can deal with a little fizz so long as it's not a mess or gets in the way of playing tight and articulate, but I mostly despise its presence. I want to hear the notes, not scratchy noise.
    • Tight and crisp low end. Round, boomy low end just kills a profile for me and more often than not metal profiles (especially if they're scooped to hell) sound like a muddy mess.
    • Minimal "Kemper TS mids". Can't tell you how many profiles I've tossed for sounding like a TS on full blast (the whole "cocked wah" thing).
    • Not having more than 1 EQ stomp. I'd need to have stomps open for effects with my current band, so if a profile needs 4 EQ stomps to function, I aint gonna use it because I don't want to shut 3 off and have it sound nothing like I expect it to. Most of the time the more the EQ done to a profile, the more it sucks the life and dynamics from it, as well IMO.

    I know that's probably really specific but those are all things I pay attention to when auditioning profiles, free or commercial. I've gone through thousands of profiles and currently have 120 in my KPA (most of which are things I keep for other people when they want to check it out). I use probably 5 or 6 profiles, most of them gems I've found for free.


    Also, the "mix ready" profiles thing is something that's unnecessary at this point. Each mix is different, so "mix ready" is only as good as the mix the profiler had in mind. If your idea of a good mix is different, it's not really "mix ready". At this point it's become a term like "gourmet" that is rendered meaningless from being overused and abused and is just a clever sales device.


    Of course this is just my view on things, which should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.


  • Thanks, @MementoMori. Some good insights there.

  • For a profile on the other hand, do you want a sweet spot? Or do you want the whole sound? Not saying I can do it, but someone can sure as hell capture an amp and a 4x12 just like it sounds in real life. Perhaps it takes more than one mic. Or perhaps it doesn't.

    Well, if that's what you're going for I'd go with distance mic'ing rather than close mic'ing.

  • since I discovered that the pick ups used in refining have a great deal to do with the version I get at home (compared to the sample)


    I mostly go for venders that specify single coil and humbuckers


    Ivan did that recently with his 5150
    We have folders for SCs and HBs etc


    Also any vender that talks about beer :D Ow and I forgot other users make me buy based on their review !


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • Good things had been said above. In my case I mostly care who it is coming from: some dude with spare mics and a few amps (no offense to anyone here) or someone with some professional sound experience or making the profiles for their own (professional) use. If they fit the latter and we have some stylistic similarities, I might consider. However, I'm pretty happy with what I have at the moment and above all I value simplicity these days so I avoid clogging up my workflow with new profiles I wouldn't be familiar with.


    Once in while I try something new that I feel I'm lacking (like a merged version of a specific amp) but don't like mixing tones of several different profilers together, so unlikely to bring it in my pool of go-tos.

  • Kemper profiles a signal chain. Amp > cab > speaker > mic > mic position > mic pre > cables. Of course this also includes any overdrives or pedals and refining factors pickups. I think everyone overstates the amp portion of the chain. Switch out the cab and slightly alter the mic position and you have a completely different sounding profile. I don’t really buy the “same amp” mantra and learned long ago that chasing “amp profiles” is a fools errand because most times somebody doesn’t even set the amp/cab/mic to your preferences anyway and everyone uses different cabs.

  • If recording was that simple, why do you think anyone pays money for quality mics and other gear. "My First Sony"? Please try and be serious

    Well, I'm sorry that my post sounded like making fun of you or making fun of the quest for great sound.
    It wasn't intended to be like that. I tried (in a bad way) to describe that it's not an automatism that expensive gear makes the best sound.
    This following statement of MementoMori probably hit the homerun...

    ... how good the profilers ear is, or how close their "personality" is to mine

    The used gear has to fit the purpose, be it cheap or expensive. The end result counts, not the way there. I'm sure you can produce some fun stuff even with a "My first Sony" mic or a Turner HAM radio mic. I can even imagine to stick a cheap Piezo element to the cab or speaker and blend it in for a specific effect. :D It's good to be open-minded and experiment .... just be creative :)

    I am absolutely convinced that I can capture my voice on a computer or a basic recorder, for example. It sounds EXACTLY like me, as if I was saying something right there. You can be fooled into thinking someone is speaking by a recording

    Yes, you can do that and you'd be surprised how little the "quality" (or price tag) of the microphone has to do with the outcome (fooling someone into thinking). That's because the formant of your voice isn't changed in the entire recording chain. For example you still immediately recognize someone's voice no matter if he/she is right next to you or talking to you from behind a closed door or even shouting for you from the garden or garage. ;) It just changes the color of the sound, not the formant that defines your voice.
    Different microphones (and their placement) can make a big difference in the "color" of the sound ... different mic preamps make less of a difference but still change the color enough to justify a specific choice for a specific purpose.


    Overall, the process of recording (or profiling) is much less of a technical process than an artistic/creative process. I've found the commercial profilers that I like (because their ears or personality bonds with mine). I don't care much what gear (mics, preamps) they use.

  • Thanks, man. What do you find are your favourite mics when it comes to profiles?


    Do let me know what you think about the profile. What would you like from that profile with respect to your setup. Note the gain on that sucker! Right at the bottom, I have no idea why it profiled like that, but it's an ultra-clean sound. I like to think it totally smashes some of the stuff that came stock with the Kemper, which I'm hoping is a sign I'm on the right track.


    My favorite mics depend on the amp/position of the profile. There are some profiles that I love the SM57. There are others where the 57 sounds a little too tinny. I think a great profile pack would be one that has multiple mics, and multiple mic positions. That way you can pick the right one for you., which is subjective to each person.

  • Thanks, guys. I’ll drop some audio clips, maybe try and determine whether there’s any interest in the profiles that I create. If there isn’t any, I suppose it doesn’t make sense to pay to host a webpage, etc.


    I will put out soloed tracks as opposed to mixes, as I don’t think the latter demonstrate anything other than mixing skills.


    @JedMckenna I’m glad you found what works for you.


    @lightbox no offence taken, but really, a My First Mic for profiling? Getting fun results and accuracy in profiles are two different things. I’m pretty convinced that different mics will offer different results, but equally convinced that one of those mics and mixing techniques will be the most representative in terms of accuracy.


    A simple test. Get someone to sing into a few mics in front of a group. Then ask the group to hear the recordings and ask which one was the most accurate. You will more often than not come out with a winner, theory about formants. That colour can work, and it can also hurt.



    @Michael_dk maybe a mix of different close and far mixed options.


    @ashtweth free profiles just for you, buddy, got to warn you though,your habit is great but you have a reputation for just buying everything. :D


    Since you have a lot, I will send you some and get some feedback first. PS: what did you mean by this? Some hidden picture that i’m not supposed to see?


    :D Waat? luv ya man hehehe!


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