What do you think the new update will be

    Quote from Dean_R

    If you're unable to see the Absolute Extreme dominance of the Kemper in the area of capturing realistic amp tones (Profiles) your'e clearly choosing to overlook a clear proof that anyone can objectively verify and not only a fan (presumably myself) of the Kemper as a device.

    I like how you do this; artificially inflate your argument by loading it with presumptions and conjecture. Yes, the Kemper can capture realistic amp tones (I'd say often around 80% to source tone). With Axe and BIAS, I've also heard similarly impressive results at this juncture. There's no absolute dominance, there's a matter of nuance.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Since AXE FX II is the most expensive and biggest contender ( a good device in its own right for effects, but not amp tones in comparison with the Kemper), I suggest you go and visit the official Fractal Presets website to find Tone Match presets for the AXE FX and see for yourself how many users managed to Tone Match real amps (I couldn't find a single one, I'm sure you might with luck find a few possibly under a hand full). Maybe google wasn't my friend but before I bought the Kemper, I researched the AXE FX and couldn't find anything worth mentioning in regards to tone match presets and that still stands today.

    Then we've heard different things. I've heard some really impressive tone matches, and heard plenty of people tweaking to get close to a source tone and being as close or closer than most Kemper tests (though not all). @Coldfrixon has mentioned as well on the Axe forum that most KPA users on this forum can't hear a difference between amp and profile even though he can. Same for Axe guys that claim to not hear a difference. He also mentioned on this forum previously how far the Axe has come and does the amp modeling better than Kemper, but Kemper does cab capture more organically than the Axe. I recall him raving about using an Axe and Kemper together (Axe for amp, Kemper for cab) and if I recall he said it was one of the better experiences he's had with both.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Tone Match was and still is an EQ match gimmick to calm down the uproar of AXE II users when the Kemper was initially released to make them think that the AXE can do what the Kemper does. It simply can't for 99% of its user except for those with access to various studio tools that might be able to tone match an amp to prove that it can be done by the AXE from an academic stand but not in any practical way that most if not all users will be able to utilize that feature to capture real amp tones.

    99%? Again, artificially inflating your argument. I've heard many impressive results, so I can only guess you're either hearing what you want to hear (or aren't). Same as profiling, tone matching on Axe or BIAS is only as good as the person setting it up. I simply can't take your ready dismissiveness seriously, not based on what I've heard.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Regarding the Kemper I'm sure you're familiar with Rig exchange and what you can find there as an unbiased (pun intended) user who's looking for profiles based on real world amps.

    Yes, I've gone through thousands of unusable profiles, though most of my mainstay rigs are off RE, just very few. Though, you're not getting "amps" with a profile, you're getting a signal chain. Amp, cab, speaker, mic, mic position, mic preamp, even cables. All leave a tonal characteristic, so the idea that you're getting an amp rather than a specific mic'd tone at a specific setting, not to mention tube amps sounding slightly different by the day, isn't really true.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Edit:
    Then again there are very knowledgeable users of the AXE II who also own the Kemper and hopefully they can make some presets of some famous Kemper Profiles or tone match and try to sell them to AXE FX users. I know that Kemper Exchange has all the AXE FX II profiled for quite a while but they're not very popular because when compared with real amp profiles the difference in quality is very evident in favor of real amp profiles.

    Well, it makes sense that they wouldn't be as popular. You didn't get the Kemper to sound like an Axe-FX. If you wanted that, you'd get an Axe-FX. People get the Kemper under the idea that it can capture mic'd amp tones, so naturally that's what people gravitate towards. That argument itself doesn't say anything about either devices inferiority or superiority. And let's not forget that the Axe profiles are how others set their Axe at a single setting, but it's not as if it's the only tone with all the parameters you can model within the device.

    Quote from Eltzejupp

    Back to topic:


    I whish an auto correction when playing a wrong note

    Yes, back on topic. Agreed. :thumbup:

    Edited once, last by MementoMori ().

    Like 1

    Yes, “just saying” is making an argument based on conjecture.


    Here:
    https://youtu.be/1MZfxLvXtLo


    This was done in a few minutes. Some are closer than others but the results are really impressive. To suggest a tone match can’t compete with a profile when the tone match nearly replicates a profile without much time or complexity says something indeed. This isn’t even saying one is better, only that your charge of “absolute extreme dominance” is needlessly hyperbolic.


    And BTW, if memory serves, “Tone Matching” wasn’t in response to the Kemper but came out months after the Kemper release and was in development beforehand.

    As Kemper AND AX8 owner, I can say this...


    There are plenty of users doing Tone Matches and posting results regularly on the FAS forums.


    That said, in the FAS world Tone Match is RARELY used solely as a way to achieve what the Kemper does. More often than not, FAS users are using TM for special-use cases: acoustic guitar simulation, wrapping up a signal chain into a TM in order to use it inside another preset to get around cabinet/amp/resource limitations, using a TM to replicate the sound of single-coils/humbuckers or specific pickups, etc.


    FAS users take pride in the idea that their chosen tool isn't limited to a snapshot (a la Kemper), but behaves "like the real amp" -- a TM for that purpose would be a last resort.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Show me available choices where I can download Tone Matches Please! One or two videos of someone with advanced skills doesn't mean anything, Can you point me to list of Tone matches that can be downloaded as Patches. You can't which is what I'm saying, Tone Match isn't accessible or doable for the average user or more than 99% of users. If it was, you would see more patches or packs of vintage amps or Metal Packs. Cm'on I want a vintage Pack or rare amps with some bread and butter Tone Match packs also.


    If it was viable how come we don't see any packs or even more than one handful of patches availabe ?(


    What seems to escape you is you confuse theory with practice, in theory many things are achievable but in practice no so much. Tone Match or EQ match can in theory work, but in practice it hasn't worked for the majority it's more of a hassle than a feature, not that I personally mind it for some situations.

    After seeing how Axe does tone matching, I’m not sure why you think it’s overly complicated or cumbersome, as if the guy in the video is some “1%” expert. But the video both demonstrated the theory and the practice, how it can also achieve Kemper tones, which seems to fly in the face of the “absolute extreme dominance” and more fairly in the realm of nuanced differences. Whether that’s popular with Axe users or not isn’t really germane to whether it is an effective tool or can compete on par tonally. I think benvigil gave a pretty reasonable explanation for why tone matching isn’t the same phenomena in the Axe world, chiefly because the KPA is beholden to it (profiling) while the Axe is not.

    I could be happy with Axe or Kemper to achieve great sounds, but couldn't justify the Fractal price being more than double in Europe. Now I have the Kemper, I love it and couldn't imagine gigging with a traditional amp any longer.


    I just want the Kemper guys to keep developing and steering the company without extreme changes, as well as they have so far. I have my preferences for eq on headphone and direct outs, but am happy whatever comes.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

    Like 1

    Look Dillon likes to use the kemper for live use and takes issue with the claims as per his experience
    Does that make him an asshole NO
    Does it mean that others who can use the Kemper for recording are wrong ?
    or that he is missing some thing
    NO, some can make music some have particular preferences no issue here


    Now Dillion is gonna go all no Ash its science and blah bah.
    But man you know what?


    In the end we need to make peace and just make music OK?
    We need to find where the kemper makes us feel good and make peace with it
    OK? :)


    You dont change things by suffering and being negative
    Good , i am not wrong and god dam it, Dlion is not either
    but we need to stop this Fing pissing subjective argument and just give advice for what we are looking for OK
    Can we help each other ?


    Cool lets do it :)
    just be kind help and be objective you wont loose man


    thats all :)
    you guys are GREAT ok
    Be kind to yourself and one another :)


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Like 7

    The Fractal is killer. The Kemper is killer as well. Different techniques to get to the same end result for me. Get great guitar tones to make good music. Or rather go out and do weekend warrior cover band gigs. They employ different methods of getting there; but both can produce great results and both can be dialed in to sound like complete a$$. I am not sure how anyone could argue AGAINST Fractal tones because they are just stupidly good on multiple levels.

    Quote from ashtweth

    You dont change things by suffering and being negative

    I don't see where I was being needlessly negative. More or less I've pointed out (to the best of my objective ability) where someone here was unjustifiably negative towards things not-Kemper. In the process I didn't take swipes at the KPA, but did point out objective and nuanced differences, which was more or less my point.


    To the theme of this thread, there are certainly things that Kemper could develop that would make give it "absolute extreme dominance" over other devices, just not there as of yet. Since the unit is built around profiling, I think further improvements to the profiling algorithm are what the main focus should be.

    Quote from MementoMori

    I don't see where I was being needlessly negative. More or less I've pointed out (to the best of my objective ability) where someone here was unjustifiably negative towards things not-Kemper. In the process I didn't take swipes at the KPA, but did point out objective and nuanced differences, which was more or less my point.
    To the theme of this thread, there are certainly things that Kemper could develop that would make give it "absolute extreme dominance" over other devices, just not there as of yet. Since the unit is built around profiling, I think further improvements to the profiling algorithm are what the main focus should be.

    Obviously it's not humanly possible to like something while being able to recognize it's faults.















    :D

    Quote from karlic

    I could be happy with Axe or Kemper to achieve great sounds, but couldn't justify the Fractal price being more than double in Europe.

    Totally agree, the Axe Fx price in Europe is ridiculous, if the distribution of it were like normal brand and you could buy it in every store with a decent price, surely it would be a lot of more Axe in Europe.


    I remember tried an ultra in the past and really like it, great effect and something very easy to play, like i could play things that i wasn't able to play on regular amps etc, it was a weird feeling between confidence and shame... :) I must say that i'd sometimes want that my Kemper to be more easy to play (through my monitors i mean cause in fr fr or with a cab the amount of volume solve that)


    I'm pretty lazy with technology but I'm sure i would be happy with an Axe.


    To come back on the kemper i really would like to have more and better reverbs and (way) more and better dist/overdrive/fuzz stuff.


    I have a memory of Christophe Kemper said new reverbs will come in a video when they release new delays, can anyone confirm that ?

    Quote from creative360

    Imagine criticizing a Yamaha product and in response having the owner of Yamaha attack you on the internet? It would never happen. Kemper team keeps their cards close to the chest, which can be frustrating. But they also admirably sidestep all that type of vitriol and aggression associated with the history of the Axe, among supporters but also "modeled" by the creator himself. There are several (well-known) artists whose number one reason for avoiding Fractal (and the CLR in its early days) was to avoid the culture of personal attacks surrounding those manufacturers. Tone really ain't no thang. It's gotten easier with digital but it has been possible for decades. But that feeling that you're part of a bully culture, for a lot of us that simply doesn't have any part of our approach to making art. Fractal users, power to you. But all the aggression, schooling attitudes, how does that further the legacy of the tech? And does more one-to-one stack parallels make the owner of an Axe write better songs or play better? If "best" is so important how come every major artist in the world doesn't use the same gear? What I love about Ceriatone is Nik makes holy-grail gear that even a high-schooler with a part time job can afford. And now there are more cheap, viable digital units than ever. The Kemper is great. Real-world great. I hope they keep developing it. They're well-aware of things that can change or improve. Either it'll happen or it won't. But objective "best" .. that's a problem for internet bullies .. Someone will always come along and change the world with a surprising setup based on taste, but more likely budget and availability. Meanwhile, apologies for the Kemper's dominant popularity, vs the other units, among high-visibility artists across genres for its amp tones and effects. Don't worry .. that doesn't mean anything. Maybe it will change.

    FWIW: I am sure L6 is, um; giving him pause right now with the Helix gear. Whether I like the device or not; it seems to be pretty dominant in the scene as of late. I know things are cyclical but it's been one heck of a long cycle ;(:D Attitudes on display on forums can be a little oft-putting for sure. One huge reason why I won't own a CLR. You either ignore it and make a purchase based on the gear quality or you don't.

    Quote from JiveTurkey

    FWIW: I am sure L6 is, um; giving him pause right now with the Helix gear. Whether I like the device or not; it seems to be pretty dominant in the scene as of late. I know things are cyclical but it's been one heck of a long cycle ;(:D Attitudes on display on forums can be a little oft-putting for sure. One huge reason why I won't own a CLR. You either ignore it and make a purchase based on the gear quality or you don't.

    Yeah, a number of former Axe and Kemper artists have gone to the Helix. And before it's voiced, no, they were not paid to do so. There are unique reasons for each switch, but much of it is artist-company relation politics. Still, have gotten a chance to speak with a few of the guys who switched and they seem genuinely happy with it & how Line 6 supports their artists. There will eventually be a new flavor of the month. Kemper has good staying power because of their unique marketing angle. Improving the profiling algorithm would bring it closer to what the marketing promises.


    I've seen and heard much on the Fractal forum and how vile it can get. From what I've seen lately, you don't get that nearly as much these days as you did in the past. There are also a growing number of Kemper & Axe owners, and plenty of Axe users who have at least polite things to say about the KPA. But it's a forum and it gets tribal and ugly. This one is no different. It's actually the first and only forum that I participate in and will be my last.

    I had to look up the thread title to remind me what this thread is about.
    An editor would be nice, but to be honest Kemper have given me way more than I bargained for when I bought it few years ago, so anything they do is yet another bonus that I'll gratefully take.

    Quote from creative360

    to date I know of no (international brand-name) bands touring Fractal for amp tones

    Cooper Carter is the guy Fractal calls on to set up patches for big acts that buy Fractal. Lots of non-metal and arena touring acts on his resume: Maroon 5, Dave Matthew Band, Journey, Dashboard Confessional, Zach Brown Band, Taylor Swift (1 guitarist uses Kemper, the other Axe), Alice in Chains, amongst a cadre of others. There are plenty of other international touring groups he hasn't worked with, it's just not always guitar-driven music where people care or fetishize about the gear being used backstage. My thoughts on why the Kemper may be more popular with touring musicians is they likely have setups they've used for years and the learning curve for taking that on the road with the KPA is much smaller than with the Axe, or it's at least perceived to be.


    I agree that the endless debate over what is best is subjective and often the differences are more nuanced. Of course small differences matter, but there's no "absolute extreme dominance" in my eyes.