Questions on Posting Modified Rigs

  • Hi Guys and Gals,


    I've been searching for a list of basic amp profiles in Rig Manager to satisfy my mainstay rig collection and came across a "workable" JCM 800 profile that sounded like it had enough fullness in spectrum to possibly mold into something I was trying to find. To be honest, it was somewhat lackluster and didn't sound like what we all knew as the JCM 800 back in the day. Too much low end saturation (almost flubby) and not enough "crunch" to get that full and tight "cutting" 80's sound. So I made some quick gain and tone adjustments and got some of the tone where I wanted it, but by no means was this what I was searching for. Just couldn't get a clean bottom end, tight crunch and balanced high-end. Put it to rest for the night.


    With fresh ears I came back to it yesterday and decided to "try" to refine it as much as I could although, had serious doubts it would be salvageable. And I really didn't want to resort to "stomps" or "effects" to get the amp to sound tight and crunchy, so I focused on the amp settings first to see if it was even possible. I kept balancing saturation and bass until it was as good as it could be (not great) and refined the mids and highs making sure I tamed the presence without losing fidelity. And that mid section had to be musical without that "boxy sounding" 500 Hz "fake" modeler midrange sound. Then I went deep...real deep...and it started to come together in ways I never thought possible. Nothing drastically changed in the deep settings, but it all started to line up and come into harmony. One more reality check...Drop tune and see if it sounded like a "Recto" (I know my inner likings). NO RECTO VIBE. It's definitely Marshall all the way.


    Well, I have to tell you, after brief breaks and minor refinements I finally hit gold and found "the dream amp" with all the tight crunchy definition AND balanced fullness you could ever hope for. I actually doubted this was "true". Could I have been locked in my own tone world? That happens. So I kept walking away and coming back fresh. Nope...it's "there". And would anything I "tweaked" now make it any better? NO, that's the balance right there. Later I did add a couple of stomps, but they didn't change the core tone, and just added a little more edge (minor treble boost). Did a quick A/B with the original patch. OMG! =O What a transformation! But here is where the rubber meets the road...Would it work on ALL of my guitars? And would it "dial back" to clean and the point of breakup...and still sound good? Holy crap! It works on EVERYTHING, and still sounds balanced and detailed. I thought the Tele would be ear piercing, but it was fantastic! P90's incredible. High gain Flying V ceramic hummies mega crunch, yet still full. You can't "oversaturate" this thing! It just gets crunchier. NO HIGH END FIZZ, and NO BUZZIENESS. Completely tight and balanced from clean to full saturation without any frequency loss or dynamic collapse. And it sounds and feels "real". Even my ESP on mid and neck single-coils did incredibly full and convincing breakup, full-tone and detailed, Jimi Hendrix and SRV tones. The real JCM-800 would not have cleaned up with that kind of dynamic definition and detail when set for high gain. And what about "Pure Cab"? (had fears it would fall apart and die) Honestly, I like it without Pure Cab slightly better (more in your face), but I also think the factory default Pure Cab set at 3.0 sounds great too. A bit darker and slightly more distant, but would be great for double-tracking as an alternate tone (a common practice). Both sound really great.


    I guess I got carried away painting this picture, but it really transformed into magic. I'm amazed that it came so far into perfect dynamic range and detailed full-range tone focus. All 10 of my guitars (didn't try my bass) sound incredible with any pickup setting or type. And it sits just perfect in real studio mixes. Not overly bass heavy, and could easily be wide-band EQ tweaked into any mix.You would't think it possible, but it's really "there" now. My real tube amp is obsolete!


    I would love to share this. Only one problem! I'm not the original author. The profile was offered as a "free to download pack" from Kemper, but originating from a well known commercial profiler. Can I still share this modified profile? I'm not trying to claim credit, as this "dream come true" amp profile would not have been possible without the excellent tone captured by the original author. I see so many people searching for this type of tone. So is it possible to share this? ?(

  • sounds interesting !


    You should contact the original owner and ask him , because you should not upload a profile you did not make


    There is a tolerance here , some users including myself did it in the past when we could find something really interesting and different from the original profile.

  • First, this post could have been, like... 3 sentences. But I get the excitement.


    Just ask the original author. They might let you post it, and it can't hurt to ask.

    Yes...I know. I guess I was making a point about what is possible with enough attention to detail. Amazing possibilities. My fingers hurt! Not from typing or tweaking knobs, but playing. ^^


    That's a good idea. I'll contact him first.


    Thanks,

  • sounds interesting !


    You should contact the original owner and ask him , because you should not upload a profile you did not make


    There is a tolerance here , some users including myself did it in the past when we could find something really interesting and different from the original profile.

    Good insight. I'm learning what is allowed and what is not. Good neighbor / citizen thing and all...


    Thanks!

  • Well, the save alternative would be to name the rig and the modifications you did. Obviously everyone would have to fiddle with the knobs themselves but you would be able to share your find and definitively on the save side.

  • Well, another great read Phil. Musta been a salesman somewhere along the line LoL.


    All kidding aside, in reality, I'd doubt commercial profilers want modded versions of their work floating around, but you never know?


    I'd be very interested in trying this profile or maybe they will, and be pleasantly surprised!


    Good luck, and good question.

  • Thanks 808illest. Actually never did sales. I'm just super stoked at the outcome. I was trying to show the process and results in words (albeit too many words), but without the excellent full-range profile captured by THE AUTHOR, I would have NOTHING to build on. So I change no name (if you can even do that...doubt it) other than the title so I can tell which one it is.


    I'll send it off and see what he thinks. And @Karajan...The coolest thing about this full range balance is I would bet no additional knob turning would be needed by anyone other than (maybe) Distortion Sense. I can plug anything into this "thing" and it sounds fantastic. That's how my Hughes and Kettner was dialed in, and I like that kind of versatility.


    Thanks guys!

  • Thanks 808illest. Actually never did sales.


    That's how my Hughes and Kettner was dialed in, and I like that kind of versatility.

    You've got the skillz for writng, no doubt. Visceral, detailed and enjoyable :thumbup:


    I wish more rigs were like that, "dialed in" :P

  • Without breaking any rules, there is nothing wrong with describing what you changed in the profile from the original. Might even make a nice tutorial video on how to take an existing profile and make it "yours".


    If the numbers shown were actually "close enough", I could...and would. But perceivable changes in tone were happening at less than 0.1, so it wouldn't be exactly the same. At first I questioned my sanity on that, but when the "E" popped up after making tweaks less than 0.1, and the number value stayed the same, I knew the unit responded to the change. Besides, it would take a lot of numbers to list them all here. It's just easier to post a file.


    BTW - I sent email to the author. No answer yet, but he's a professional musician, so I'm sure he is busy.


    You've got the skillz for writng, no doubt. Visceral, detailed and enjoyable :thumbup:
    I wish more rigs were like that, "dialed in" :P

    Thanks!


    Some probably don't like my long-winded rants. I understand. It's passion. And communicating that takes "wind". :D


    I too wish more profiles were versatile enough to work with any guitar. I think the old adage "you have to change your tone controls when you switch guitars" is not true. At least, it doesn't have to be. The right amp with the right settings can sound great with any decent guitar. Since my early days I had learned to make my amp work with any guitar but a truly "bad" guitar (they exist). But then again I've made bad sounding guitars sound pretty good with proper pickup adjustments...unless the pickups are bad (muddy or exaggerated in some undesirable way). That's a showstopper. Once you have a great organic amp tone happening, then you can really hear the guitar resonance and evaluate pickup quality, then make the adjustments that bring out the best in a guitar's tone.


    Peace!

  • I dont see why anyone cares if you post the profile and the changes (written or video) of what you did. I've seen many videos of these types of things even with paid profiles.

    I get that same feeling. I reached out and didn't get a reply. This is a FREE offering anyway, and not a pay for profile. I'm not claiming authorship credit. I only changed one letter in the name so I can recall the correct tweaked version.


    // REMOVED BY ADMIN //


    It's not a heavily "colored" tone with a lot of speaker filtration. It's more open and "wide bandwidth" in nature, so compared to many that do have lots of speaker character, it might sound almost bland. But give it a chance before you start twisting knobs. Jam on it for a while...Try some different guitars and pickups. Dial back the guitars and see how it responds. But if you do change the Gain control, you might mess up the bottom end. The Gain and Bass are very intertwined on this profile.


    About effects...Everything on is pretty cutting edge. Everything off is a bit plain, but I think pretty balanced. The slight Treble Boost in Stomp position C helps with definition, and Stereo Widener in Effects slot MOD really puts a sharp edge on it. The slight Comp effect in position B holds the low-mid tone range a bit. The Wah was my personal choice (modified Cry Baby). Use whatever you like.


    Hope someone likes it as much as I do.


    Cheers!

    Phil 8)

    Edited 2 times, last by PHILBERT: Had the wah turned on by accident. Unplugged expression pedals and tested before saving again. ().

  • Downloaded this and tried it through a 4x12 Mesa V30. Couldn't say I would tweak a thing. Nice work.


    It's not a drastic departure from the original but, it does add something in the midrange area that I like.


    Only tried with my trusty old Strat but overall I like it. Thanks!

  • Downloaded this and tried it through a 4x12 Mesa V30. Couldn't say I would tweak a thing. Nice work.


    It's not a drastic departure from the original but, it does add something in the midrange area that I like.


    Only tried with my trusty old Strat but overall I like it. Thanks!

    Glad it works for you. And you're right...not that drastic from the original until you kick in the stomps and effects (mostly Boost, Comp and maybe Stereo Widener). The core tone was cleaned up as much as I could sway it. The effects, which are different from the original, put the sharp edge on it.


    Is it the exact 80"s metal JCM 800 sound I'm wanting? No, but more of a flexible tone for general use. I Purchased the Top Jimi JCM 800 pack and have an issue with a frequency peak somewhere between 2K and 3K that I can't get rid of. No guitar I try helps that "horn" type sound. Studio monitors and headphones have the same peak, so it's not that. Sounds nothing like the Demo of the profile on YouTube. And I did try Pure Cab on and off. No help. That leaves me questioning the integrity of the commercial profiles. I will say Top Jimi's VH Brown Sound pack is spot on. So I'm not sure what happened with his JCM800. ?(


    I'm starting to see shortfalls with some of the commercial profiles. I like bass, but not flubby or muddy saturation...rather tight bottom...even if you have to get a clean bass level in post EQ. Limited speaker cab choices are another shortcoming, as the typical cabs used back when these amps were classics are often not used in the profiling. And doing all the samples in D# tuning (or some type of Drop Dead tuning) is not always creating the "typical" tone these amps are famous for. The Amp Factory Demo of a JCM 800 might be a great recording with excellent musicianship, but again nothing like the tone I knew so well back in the late 80's. Judas Priest, man! The hunt for that tone continues. I can't believe no one has profiled it by now. :huh:

  • Hi PHILBERT,


    can you post a sample video of exactly the sound you're looking for? I'm a huge 800 fan myself, maybe I can help.


    I don't know if it fits your expectations but I recently bought the JCM800ZW Pack from choptones and I'm totally blown away.
    It's not only good for recreating the perfect Zakk Wylde tone, but also it has so many different Preamp, EQ, Pedal, Cab and Mic variations (I believe 150 profiles in total)
    that it fits almost all my 800-needs from clean and bluesy to high gain. Maybe check it out.


    Cheers, David

    Lots of kids when they get their first instrument hammer away at it but they don't realise there are so many levels of dynamics with a guitar. You can play one note on a guitar and it really gets to people if it is the right note in the right place played by the right person.


    Gary Moore

  • Hi David,


    I actually did put a post out of tones I'm looking for...


    Seeking These Recorded Tones


    No one answered, but that's OK. I'm becoming a dinosaur. :D Maybe a fossil. 8|


    ChopTones is on my list to check out, but I was searching for a realistic Recto tone when I spotted his videos. There was a French guy "Voron Guitar" who had the most honest Rectifier tone I have ever heard that I would buy in a second if I could find his profiles. Not a "mean" recto tone, but very realistic. The right stomps could make that profiled tone everything a Recto is known for. And that brings up another point...When profilers stick a Tube Screamer in front of the amp they profile, that colors the sound in a way that can't be undone. What a shame! Let the player add a TS808 stomp if they want that sound. I never liked that midrange sound anyway. Not my cup of tea.


    Getting back to the JCM, I realize the bands I liked back then might have been using other amps to get that metal sound of that era. Queensryche may have used Bogner Fish...or whatever. Maybe it's the Marshall cabinet of that era that's missing from these profiles. Whatever Celestion speaker type was popular back then, I'm having trouble finding it. Then there are the guitar tuning issues on demos. I think it's strange when I hear real amp profile demos of 7 string guitars tuned "as low as they can go" emulating the buzzy sound of a modeler that sounds nothing like a real amp. I'm starting to think bad modeler "simulations" have shifted the guitar sound paradigm away from real amp sound to the point of it being expected out of REAL amps! :S


    Thanks for the suggestions. I'll take another look at ChopTones.

    Phil 8)

    Edited once, last by PHILBERT: more grammer mistakes...I need to proofread more before posting! ().

  • I would love to share this. Only one problem! I'm not the original author. The profile was offered as a "free to download pack" from Kemper, but originating from a well known commercial profiler. Can I still share this modified profile? I'm not trying to claim credit, as this "dream come true" amp profile would not have been possible without the excellent tone captured by the original author. I see so many people searching for this type of tone. So is it possible to share this?

    whatever you do, please do not share it here (on this website, rig exchange etc.)