Celestion F12-X200 (Full Range, Live Response Driver) Released

    I really hope this speaker isn’t a dud. Celestion has been knocking it out of the park lately (I love the Alnico Cream and H75) and would really like to use one or two of these in my StoneAge cabs.

    I really wish Celestion would hurry up and get the F12-X200's in some US distributors. The price looks to be around $149 street judging from a few sources.


    BTW, what looks to be a promising cab for a F12-X200 is available as a used item, the Rocktron S112. It's a 1X12 cab with a port, not sure exactly how it compares to the PDF in post #40, will have to check. The stock driver is an OEM Eminence that is fairly flat 60Hz-5.5kHz or so from my measurements. It has no tweeter so it's not a FRFR. It has a sturdy handle and good feet, a metal grille, T-nuts on the speaker, carpet covering, and appears to be made of 5\8" plywood (not pressboard or MDF). It's fairly light without a driver.


    However the S112 is really cheap (around $70 or so used), and does not appear to be hard to source. I was able to buy two from the local Music Go Round for $109. Used it on a gig with a V30 and it sounded great, am greatly looking forward to dropping a F12-X200 in there (if they ever arrive stateside...)


    EDIT: It appears there are some perhaps later versions of the S112 that are made of particle board instead of 5\8" plywood. Mine are clearly plywood, but one on Reverb (https://reverb.com/item/160594…ktron-1x12-guitar-cabinet) has an internal pic that shows it is clearly particle board. The one in the Reverb auction has a painted or vinyl finish and corner protectors, no T nuts on the speaker screws, plus a curved grille. Mine has carpet covering, no corners, T nuts, and a flat grille. Might be worth checking closely if you are going to purchase one.

    Edited once, last by MKB: New information on S112 ().

    Like 1

    Not trying to be a naysayer as I love my Celestions, but since my embarkation upon the Kemper experience (Power Rack), my biggest challenge has been the FRFR cab thing. I didn't want to buy a PA style wedge or cabinet, so I built a 2x12 cab based on Thiele Small specs for the speakers I was considering. I did that and utilized Eminence Beta-12CX woofs, ASD1001 1" HF Titanium horns, and Eminence PXB2:2K5CX 2-Way crossovers. The results were horrible. Tunnel, brittle, fizzy and definitely not representative of a profiled cab. I figured it was my build, so I had a different 2x12 built where I once again used my Eminence solution. Honestly, not much better, if at all. I experimented with batting types and amounts until things sounded better, but it was still off. It was my miniDSP, REW, and pink noise that opened my eyes. After analyzing the cab with the full range RTA, I found it was painfully nothing close to FRFR. With a passive crossover, I was pretty much stuck again. I decided to buy a Dayton Audio PPA800DSP 2-Way plate amp like what is also used in the Xitone cab. It has a DSP that allows for 6 adjustable EQ points (with Q) on each side of the High/Low (variable) crossover along with other features. Slowly tweaking while monitoring with the miniDSP and REW has rewarded me with a cab that is freakishly flat and amazingly representative of the profiled amp/cab.


    Take away: Following my experience, I don't see how a single driver, such as the Celestion F12-X200, simply dropped into any cab will produce true FRFR results. The cab design/specs will definitely impact how the driver performs. Additionally, a hard set passive crossover, such as the F12-X200 utilizes, further limits the ability to tailor nuances native to the cabinet used. Just something to ponder for those thinking this Celestion solution will be the golden ticket in an FRFR quest.


    Attached is a screen shot of my cab after eq balancing. Disregard the 12 Jan 18 date, it should be 12 Jan 19.

    The thing that concerns me the most about any FRFR with the range split over multiple drivers is tone cohesion over volume changes, especially at higher volumes. More times than not, if I use the Kemper with any standard wedge monitor, the tone is awful on a loud stage. Way too many brittle highs, it seems all you can hear is the tweeter and no woofer at all. This does not happen at all at the same volume levels on the same stage if a single driver is used, such as a guitar speaker or a single "full range" driver like a Eminence 12LTA.


    The only thing I can figure is the woofer hits its maximum acoustic output and starts compressing while the tweeter (often much more efficient than the woofer) has lots of acoustic headroom. You end up with lots of tweeter and not much else. I really hope the F12-X200 doesn't do this.

    Agree. Every speaker driver has it's sweet spot. It takes experimentation and objective measurement (as AZRipp found above) to find out what drivers work in what cabinets. I posted last month about all the FRFR-ish solutions out there.

    Quote from AZRipp

    I decided to buy a Dayton Audio PPA800DSP 2-Way plate amp like what is also used in the Xitone cab. It has a DSP that allows for 6 adjustable EQ points (with Q) on each side of the High/Low (variable) crossover along with other features. Slowly tweaking while monitoring with the miniDSP and REW has rewarded me with a cab that is freakishly flat and amazingly representative of the profiled amp/cab.

    I didn't realize that Dayton Audio PPA800DSP was so flexible. To be clear, it has 12!!! parametric EQ points for each of the 5 presets (accessible from the back of the amp) - link to manual. I can see why Mic Farlow would favor this over the stock F12-X200 crossover in his Xitones.


    With the DSP and a properly built cab, you might be able to get away with a smaller 8" or 10" driver by extending the lows.

    Yes, there are 6 EQ points on each side of the cross-over. That is in addition to the the high pass and low pass. Additionally, you can apply a volume level of your choosing to both sides of the cross-over in addition to an overall volume. You can also apply limiting and a few other features. And yes, the EQ settings are per each preset bank that you can set however you like. I'm insanely happy now that I've got the cab nicely balanced. It'll be weird the first time playing out without my 1/2 stack behind me.

    Well, the news from NAMM 2019 (the Kemper proprietary Celestion and Kemper Cab imprints, and Kemper offering the drivers without cabs) has in one clean shot killed any desire I have to buy a F12-X200. I'll wait for the Kemper Celestion, as it promises to have all the functionality of a F12 plus a lot more, at least in the Monitor Out. And from CK's description of the DSP interaction with the proprietary Kemper\Celestion driver, the new solution promises a lot more than just IRs with a FRFR.

    Quote from MKB

    Well, the news from NAMM 2019 (the Kemper proprietary Celestion and Kemper Cab imprints, and Kemper offering the drivers without cabs) has in one clean shot killed any desire I have to buy a F12-X200. I'll wait for the Kemper Celestion, as it promises to have all the functionality of a F12 plus a lot more, at least in the Monitor Out. And from CK's description of the DSP interaction with the proprietary Kemper\Celestion driver, the new solution promises a lot more than just IRs with a FRFR.

    Hmm... I'm assuming that the F12-X200 is exactly what is in the Kemper cab, I'll eat an $8 Chinese Floyd if I'm wrong :) (I'm assuming they're edible?)

    It's a bit coincidental the timing of the release from Celestion and Kemper happening at the same time. More than likely this speaker was developed with Kemper's help but Celestion are allowed to sell their own version...

    Quote from CelticGibson

    It's a bit coincidental the timing of the release from Celestion and Kemper happening at the same time. More than likely this speaker was developed with Kemper's help but Celestion are allowed to sell their own version...

    That’s what I think too. Way too much of a coincidence. It also provides a way of Kemper subtracting the speaker influence from the profiles if Celestion were able to provide them with proper detailed frequency information for the cab. Reference mic in an anachoic chamber perhaps?

    Quote from stratdude

    Hmm... I'm assuming that the F12-X200 is exactly what is in the Kemper cab, I'll eat an $8 Chinese Floyd if I'm wrong :) (I'm assuming they're edible?)

    According to Christoph Kemper from the Anderton's video, he says that "Celestion is custom making these for Kemper", so these are probably not the F12-X200 - but maybe the F12-X200 is made after the Kemper idea and design and slightly altered.

    I think Celestion is going to probably white label the F12-X200 for Kemper. I would be very surprised if these "two" speakers were very different.


    Also, looks like that Kemper basically wrote the software to do the fancy EQ work to let the speaker sound truly FRFR or other speaker models. Kind of what AZRipp did with that fancy Dayton amplifier (that looks pretty awesome btw).

    Yes, I think ToneDeaf is bang on the money. I don’t believe it will be a completely unique speaker for Kemper but rather a white lablled version of something else (most likely the F12 -200). I would compare it to the Mesa Boogie Black Shaddow C90. It is a Celestion Classic Lead 80 but the agreement specifies Celstion must supply made in UK versions rather than Chinese manufactured speakers. celestion also rate it for 90w rather than 80w which may mean a slight tweak to their version or it might just be a marketing ploy and both speakers are actually capable of handling the same power. (Call me n old cynic if you like ;))

    If Christoph and his team were to build into the Kemper a user adjustable, pre-power amp, system level EQ with about 12-14 EQ points to include Low and High pass filters, you could almost use any FRFR'ish speaker. The F12-X200 has a hard set passive filter which is fine as long as overall EQing can be applied adjusting for the cabinet being used. Since I'm sure Celestion provided the Thiele Small specs to Kemper, something the rest of us haven't seen yet, I'm sure they were able to designed a cab to leverage the FRFR capabilities of the F12-X200 (or whatever speaker it ends up being). I could see in a future firmware release where there is an option to push a button that enables an internal EQ setting that instantly optimizes a Kemper/Kemper Cab combo. Although it would be great to see a system level EQ available for everyone's use, for marking purposes, I would be surprised.