Celestion F12-X200 (Full Range, Live Response Driver) Released

  • About the Kemper speaker I only read:

    - I think

    - Would be

    - Could be

    - I (don't) believe

    - Looks like

    - Probably

    - More than likely

    - I'm assuming

    ............................................ a lot of hearsay and nobody really knows :)

  • Very true, it will be interesting to see.

  • One thing to remember about FRFR is the cabinet, guys. You cannot just plonk a so-called FRFR speaker in any cab and say it is now an FRFR solution.


    For example, the Atomic CLR and Matrix FR Cab’s are busily to very high specifications. You can’t just take their speakers out and hope to replicate that kind of thing. It takes engineering.


    In that sense, when I think of the Kemper Kabinet, I’m positive that the DSP that is used when driving the Kone has been tailored to that specific cabinet.


    Even if they are selling the speakers separately, I’d strongly suggest asking Kemper Amps for the exact dimensions and build you should be aiming at with your own cab.


    In that respect, I chuckle a bit at the idea of a 4x12 FRFR cabinet. IMHO, it’s wishful thinking that this will be FRFR just because you put the Celestion or Kemper speaker in.


    Of course, YMMV. I’d love to have one myself for that matter!

  • I'm going to try the Kemper Celestion with an original T21 Power Engine that's collecting dust. It would be a great, light weight stage speaker. Hopefully more natural sounding than my K10.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me

  • Not trying to be a naysayer as I love my Celestions, but since my embarkation upon the Kemper experience (Power Rack), my biggest challenge has been the FRFR cab thing. I didn't want to buy a PA style wedge or cabinet, so I built a 2x12 cab based on Thiele Small specs for the speakers I was considering. I did that and utilized Eminence Beta-12CX woofs, ASD1001 1" HF Titanium horns, and Eminence PXB2:2K5CX 2-Way crossovers. The results were horrible. Tunnel, brittle, fizzy and definitely not representative of a profiled cab. I figured it was my build, so I had a different 2x12 built where I once again used my Eminence solution. Honestly, not much better, if at all. I experimented with batting types and amounts until things sounded better, but it was still off. It was my miniDSP, REW, and pink noise that opened my eyes. After analyzing the cab with the full range RTA, I found it was painfully nothing close to FRFR. With a passive crossover, I was pretty much stuck again. I decided to buy a Dayton Audio PPA800DSP 2-Way plate amp like what is also used in the Xitone cab. It has a DSP that allows for 6 adjustable EQ points (with Q) on each side of the High/Low (variable) crossover along with other features. Slowly tweaking while monitoring with the miniDSP and REW has rewarded me with a cab that is freakishly flat and amazingly representative of the profiled amp/cab.


    Take away: Following my experience, I don't see how a single driver, such as the Celestion F12-X200, simply dropped into any cab will produce true FRFR results. The cab design/specs will definitely impact how the driver performs. Additionally, a hard set passive crossover, such as the F12-X200 utilizes, further limits the ability to tailor nuances native to the cabinet used. Just something to ponder for those thinking this Celestion solution will be the golden ticket in an FRFR quest.


    Attached is a screen shot of my cab after eq balancing. Disregard the 12 Jan 18 date, it should be 12 Jan 19.

    Im with this guy. I think the notion this speaker will produce flat response in any cabinet you plop it in is a bit of a stretch, but i may buy one and a sheet of baltic birch ply and whip a small cabinet together and see how it sounds. Not a huge investment and may luck out without doing to much else who knows.
    Currently I am using a Klipsch KP1 which sounds ok, a touch on the brittle side . My buddy had an old 3 way in his cellar he bought in the 90s he dusted off for me to try and it sounded friggin amazing. The OSC 12s sound ok too. This is the big issue for these Kempers I think, getting a cabinet that works for you. I personally dont want anything big, 1x12 would be ideal cause im either going into FOH and getting a monitor mix and just need a nice sounding cabinet as a back up for venues and foh engineers that suck and practices and jams.

  • but i may buy one and a sheet of baltic birch ply and whip a small cabinet together and see how it sounds. Not a huge investment and may luck out without doing to much else who knows.

    kind of the way I’m thinking at the moment too.


    Could be a fun little project and I just might get a useable cabinet out of it. If I don’t I can always stick a V30 or something else more traditional and find another use for it.

  • anyone knows if the Amps in the Mission Cabs

    have any special Equine etc for the Speaker built in ?

    I have a mission i/o and may want to change the speaker

    in this for the Celestion to hear what the F12 X200 Sounds with the

    Kemper, but will only get realistic results when there's no addiotinal

    tweaking from the built in Mission amp

  • Not a good idea. Those Mission IOs have a 1" high frequency driver in them as well in addition to the 12" speaker. Plus there's some kind of crossover employed.


    I'd also be scared of screwing up a good thing by removing the speaker, but that's just me :D

  • Not a good idea. Those Mission IOs have a 1" high frequency driver in them as well in addition to the 12" speaker. Plus there's some kind of crossover employed.


    I'd also be scared of screwing up a good thing by removing the speaker, but that's just me :D

    I would have to agree wholeheartedly! Speaker manufacturers go through a great deal of effort to design a cabinet around a driver. I'm going to assume Mission did the same thing. By changing the driver, unless you're so insanely lucky that the F12-200 has the exact same Thiele Small parameters, your outcome may be very disappointing. I don't know much about the Mission cabs, but if the 1" HF Driver is separate, as in "not" a coaxial driver design, you'll be dealing with either not utilizing it or figuring out a new cross-over solution. If it is separate, and you want to use it, you may end up with a very brittle cab. I wish Celestion would publish the Thiele Small parameters for this speaker. That way people would have at least something to go on if they would like to design a cab for themselves. Makes me wonder why they have not.

  • I thought the Thiele Small paramaters only mattered if you are porting the cab. For open or closed cab they should be irrelevant. Is that not the case?

    Even if the cabinet is not ported, the internal volume of the cabinet matters. A smaller cabinet will have a higher resonant frequency than a larger cabinet. The other thing that matters with sealed cabinets is the amount and type of sound deadening material in them.

  • I thought the Thiele Small paramaters only mattered if you are porting the cab. For open or closed cab they should be irrelevant. Is that not the case?

    Actually, the Thiele Small parameters will tell you at a minimum how much air space volume you need in either a closed or open enclosure. In an open enclosure that is ported, those parameters will change depending on the port size desired for the "tuning" of the cabinet. Additionally, the parameters, through mathematical computation, will assist in designing the shape of the enclosure to optimize resonance. There are some great TS calculators available on the Internet. This isn't as critical in a traditional guitar cab as the speakers are designed differently. In a HiFi, PA, or FRFR cabinet, it maters considerably. As an experiment today, I'm going to run pink noise through my bands FOH mains to get an idea of their range/response. I'll be monitoring it with a miniDSP and REW. I mostly want to know how they compare to the cab I setup this same way, which BTW has been fantastic now that it's true tuned. In the end, I may try to tweak the channels I use so there a no significant peaks or valleys in my freq range.