Celestion F12-X200 (Full Range, Live Response Driver) Released

  • I have hunted back through the thread a couple of pages but didn't spot what you are using for amplification, Jeega. If it is alredy there somewhere would you mind posting again what is driving these?


    Regards,

    Antipodes

    Hi, I have a powered Kemper rack.


    Today I connected another my custom 2x12 closed back. Inside there's a Mesa Black Shadow C90 (as in the other cab) and a V30 UK. The profiles sound a little bit darker and closed than the Vox open back cab but can be listened to and played very well. I could try to open the cab with the F12-X200 to hear the differences.

  • something must be wrong

    my 1x12 is great

    I'm glad your cab goes well. Out of curiosity, could you post the project? Exact measurements and everything else, so as to make a couple of arguments on a concrete basis. Thanks!


    EDIT: I'm conversing via email with Celestion support, for now I have made them aware of the tests carried out just as described on the forum pages.


    I decided to render Thomann 1 speaker because doing the tests individually, one sounds different from the other.

    I will continue with the 1x12 project by remaking cab's front baffle.

    Edited 2 times, last by Jeeega ().

  • The saga of the F12 cones continues. Celestion technical assistance leaves me a little perplexed about the "very little technical answers". Answers a little pre-packaged against my detailed report. Now I have submitted to him the graph of the impedance module measured with a 100 Ohm peak (see previous post), let's see if the defect or difference I hear by ear between the two cones can refer to that. In fact, only one of the two had been measured and it is precisely what I think feels worse between the two. Later I will repeat the measurement on the other.


    The only certain data is that 1 F12 cone works well in a volume of 50 liters in a closed box (in addition to the reflex project already seen), only a bit of extension at the bottom is lost. No particular shapes or magic, for them this speaker has to sound good in such a case.

  • Do both speakers have the same impedance curve?


    You may have said it already and I just missed it but does it sound better with just one of them hooked up?

    As I wrote in my last post I have not yet measured both but only one. During rehearsals I realized that only one "played correctly", ie one sounded "decidedly bad as if it was broken", the other sounded better. I do not overreact to say that one sounds good because the judgment would give it only at the end of all the tests. The disappointment remains regarding the "technical support", which is definitely non-existent.


    digbob I'm still waiting for the answer, thanks

  • Well... I'm not saying you're wrong :), but ideally, a FRFR has the same goals (frequency response wise) as a studio monitor, and almost every one of those is ported.


    e.g. the Friedman ASC-10/12 are both ported. Celestion recommends a ported design for the F12-X200 for best response.

  • Well... I'm not saying you're wrong :), but ideally, a FRFR has the same goals (frequency response wise) as a studio monitor, and almost every one of those is ported.


    e.g. the Friedman ASC-10/12 are both ported. Celestion recommends a ported design for the F12-X200 for best response.


    Yes, but it’s live response full range, not FRFR.


    I think studio monitors are a good example of why you shouldn’t have ports.


    They tend to be there to accentuate the bass response and that can play havoc depending on your listening space.


    My current monitors aren’t ported, and I like them quite a bit more than the last pair I had, which was ported. Wasn’t the monitors fault, but in a room like mine, those rear firing vents played havoc.


    In the case of the Atomic CLR for example, I don’t think they have ports either.

  • Ports are designed to extend the bass response. Ports and "transmission lines" are effectively delay lines which reinforce the low end at the frequency they are tuned for.


    I think that’s a really tricky design to build on your own them. Building a port into a speaker isn’t just cutting a hole into it. Many of the hi fi companies spend a lot of time working out how to design a port to get the best tuned response.


    That may explain why Jeeega is having so much trouble. It’s not even a 1x12 but a 2x12 he’s built. Tricky as hell. And remember, not an FRFR speaker.

  • Nevertheless, Celestion's recommended enclosure is ported. The port dimensions are specified in the PDF they released.

    Yes. The specs give the length and diameter of the tube. The maths on the acoustic properties of the port tube will have been done by the designer. I would have to agree with Nightlight that the dual speaker thing is a complicating factor for sure. You could split the cab by inserting a divider which would halve the volume and stop the drivers interacting. You could also wire it in stereo.


    This split design is used in some commercial cabs. Mesa Boogie make a split 2x12 cab for the Road King line. It has a sealed box in one half with a Mesa V30 in it and the other half has a ported back and a C90 black shadow. You can mic either or both and the matching Roak King heads are swiss-army knife designs with multiple channels with different preamp circuits covering everything from fender clean through classic rock to high gain stuff.

  • see pdf file

    btw this is from the celestion site, not my plan

    I'm sorry I didn't realize that I had followed the PDF project I thought I had done an open back with custom sizes

    Yes. The specs give the length and diameter of the tube. The maths on the acoustic properties of the port tube will have been done by the designer. I would have to agree with Nightlight that the dual speaker thing is a complicating factor for sure. You could split the cab by inserting a divider which would halve the volume and stop the drivers interacting. You could also wire it in stereo.


    This split design is used in some commercial cabs. Mesa Boogie make a split 2x12 cab for the Road King line. It has a sealed box in one half with a Mesa V30 in it and the other half has a ported back and a C90 black shadow. You can mic either or both and the matching Roak King heads are swiss-army knife designs with multiple channels with different preamp circuits covering everything from fender clean through classic rock to high gain stuff.

    yes you are absolutely right. I reasoned like a typical box while perhaps it is better to think differently. One of the two cones is already on its way to Thomann. The 1x12 project is under construction :)

  • I don't know why people here are so afraid of with doubling speakers? If you have ever done calculations using WinISD, a cab, double te size and twice the bass reflex ports, with twice the drivers shows the exact same frequency, phase, impulse response. Only thing that changes is efficiency... And looking at it scientifically, that makes sense too: those drivers pull the cab vacuum or pressurize it at the same moment, so, it doesn't matter if there is a physical or imaginary division between those drivers....


    The real problem with multiple drivers will be that on the higher range of the frequency spectrum (from frequencies where the distance between cones centre-to-centre is more than half the wavelength), you start getting comb filtering off axis. That's why line arrays where invented. But hey, that didn't stop Marshall from building 4x12 cabs, and guitar players from loving them? So, why should it stop us now ;)

  • However, as evidence of what the "celestion technician" said, this woofer works well even in a adeguate closed volume like any existing woofer on planet earth. The fact of not using the bass reflex causes only a lost of a part of the extension at the bottom. Nothing to do with sounds bad or doesn't sound at all. No relevance with regards to making 1x12 or 2x12 but it was of few words: if Celestion is not interested in the same care for customers and the sale of their products...

  • FWIW, Celestion will never tell you the driver will sound bad in ANY cabinet.


    However, what you said it entirely true: a ported design might be "better" but that doesn't mean it will sound bad in a closed cabinet. Closed cabinets are much more forgiving with different driver pairings.

  • Speaker alone does not an FRFR Cab make. Your enclosure is at least as important.


    It’ll also be interesting to see if any manufacturer uses them, like the Tech21 Power Engine that had a Celestion in it.

    I definitely find with the FRFR speakers or the FRLR (which is just Celestions marketing spiel for enhanced FRFR) the cab only has a bearing if it is too big and bulky. Smaller cabs it really has zero affect to it, this is the reason why I use the F12's in a small closed back Zilla cab which they have tested and it sounds excellent.