Kemper 2 expectations

  • Total round trip, and what difference does it make to you whether I or anyone else can or can't perceive it or prefer a lower latency? If you don't care about lower latencies, great. If 4ms doesn't bother you, great. I clearly explicated how you can verify the perceptibility of 4ms via the Haas effect, so try it yourself. It's not debatable, however I already said it's not a deal breaker but that I prefer as low a latency as possible because I'm a bit sensitive to it. I'm hardly alone, but that's irrelevant. I honestly couldn't care less what you or 1,000 other guitarists prefer latency wise. I'm just stating my experience and preference.

    I'm just discussing and pointing out what I believe to be misunderstanding and misconception that you're stating.


    Yes even 1 MS can be perceivable if you're talking about a mix setting. Yes if you add one 1ms of delay to one guitar track on the left the mixed sound will be very perceivable. But that's not what we're talking about. You're claiming to be bothered by 4ms round trip latency playing live which is the equivalent of the time it takes the player of acoustic piano to hear the sound after they press their Key!! Really?


    So if you're going to site the HAAS effect, to say that 4ms of delay is perceivable, you'r e not the only one who can perceive the 4ms.latency


    Actually every other guitarist or non guitarist can hear a mere one ms latency or delay in a mix when applied to one track and not applied to another similar track. The purpose of the HAAS discussion is to add depth and localization in a mix , not while recording live, and has practically no baring on plugging into a DAW to play an amp plugin or any other effect live.


    Of course that's not debatable, but to conclude that a digital processor including a computer setup that has 3 ms or 4ms of delay is undesirable to you musically siting the HAAS effect is confusing apples with oranges.

  • I'm just discussing and pointing out what I believe to be misunderstanding and misconception that you're stating.
    Yes even 1 MS can be perceivable if you're talking about a mix setting. Yes if you add one 1ms of delay to one guitar track on the left the mixed sound will be very perceivable. But that's not what we're talking about.

    I'm not talking about comb filtering or stereo imaging. I'm talking about actual timing differences. In blind tests, my threshold is roughly 2ms - 2.5ms. It varies from person to person, much the way some people can discern frequencies above 19KHz while others can't.


    The purpose of the HAAS discussion is to add depth and localization in a mix , not while recording live, and has practically no baring on plugging into a DAW to play an amp plugin or any other effect live.

    It's obvious what it's typically used for(to provide greater stereo imaging). Why it works is the reason it's applicable here. The slight latency incurred by 4ms is easier to discern using the effect, and it has nothing to do with differences in terms of stereo imaging or comb filtering. It's irrelevant whether you, personally, can't hear the difference. I can.

  • I'm not talking about comb filtering or stereo imaging. I'm talking about actual timing differences. In blind tests, my threshold is roughly 2ms - 2.5ms....

    I don' know who measured this, but if this is true then you have my sympathy.


    Considering most if not all digital mixers and effects devices have 2-3 ms ballpark latency and you''re putting the AXE FX II or the Kemper in the loop as you stated. you're getting roughly 4 to 5 ms total for both devices and you're enjoying it.


    That proves my point that guitarists adjust quickly to latency unless it's above 10ms. If you truly were bothered by 4ms latency you wouldn't be enjoying digital devices with commutative latency of more than 4ms and you would have been playing tube amp strictly. Just sayiin :D

  • I don' know who measured this, but if this is true then you have my sympathy.
    Considering most if not all digital mixers and effects devices have 2-3 ms ballpark latency and you''re putting the AXE FX II or the Kemper in the loop as you stated. you're getting roughly 4 to 5 ms total for both devices and you're enjoying it.


    If you're not using the amp block the latency in the Axe is 1.3ms, and I almost never use one when using the KPA in the loop. I also listen via direct monitoring within the Focusrite. The overall latency is typically less than 4ms, and generally 2ms if I'm using the Axe or KPA exclusively.

  • That proves my point that guitarists adjust quickly to latency unless it's above 10ms. If you truly were bothered by 4ms latency you wouldn't be enjoying digital devices with commutative latency of more than 4ms and you would have been playing tube amp strictly. Just sayiin :D

    Below are two click tracks. The first is a single track with no latency, the second is comprised of two clicks timed with a 4ms delay between them and both panned to the center. They audibly demonstrate the timing differences irrespective of comb filtering and stereo imaging. If you can't hear the slight timing difference in the 4ms sample, I honestly don't know what to tell you.


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  • If you're not using the amp block the latency in the Axe is 1.3ms, and I almost never use one when using the KPA in the loop. I also listen via direct monitoring within the Focusrite. The overall latency is typically less than 4ms, and generally 2ms if I'm using the Axe or KPA exclusively.


    Like I said, I think you seem to misunderstand the issue unless you're saying that you can't play an amp if it's 1.5 meters away from your ears because that would be 5ms.


    Also In your current setup you must prefer headphones because if you're using speakers they can also add another 3ms if they're 3feet away from your ears. Sorry man but that's really funny. stuff.




    the second is comprised of two clicks timed with a 4ms delay between them and both panned to the center. They audibly demonstrate the timing differences irrespective of comb filtering and stereo imaging. If you can't hear the slight timing difference in the 4ms sample, I honestly don't know what to tell you.


    Again this is really funny. It shows extreme superficial understanding of Latency.


    You're talking about a completely different concept and topic in latency while mixing everything up to support that you can sense latency more than the average person as if it's something good to be sensitive to latency. and requiring precise timing under 4ms to be somewhat crucial to your unrealistic and Non-real world requirements. Bass player and guitar player as well as drums can have significantly more than 4ms timing differences and their performance would be perceived as extremely tight.after all their equipment is more than 4 ft apart :D


    Latency and timing differences is what makes music natural as it supposed to be Did you ever try to align the drum and base or guitar performance of a Rock Band and remove the minor natural latency that exists between the performers? Don't even hint at that! Will you correct the natural latency of a double tracked guitar to make them perfectly timed?


    You're mixing up so many concepts to support your statement that you can't personally deal with latency of 4ms or more because you're sensitive to it. Again if that's true, you have my sympathy because it must really suck to have to keep your ears less than 3 feet away from any speaker and you can never really jam or perform with other musicians because the timing differences due to real world latency are bothersome. Yikes.

  • You've already made these points and I've already addressed them. If you have any new supporting evidence to add to your argument, I'll be glad to discuss it in PM.

  • Discussions aren't always linear. People can and do disagree at times, and when disagreements occur, a comment pertaining to the topic may require further elaboration and/or supporting evidence.


    Not that I have a problem with these kinds of debates on the forum, but these arguments seem to be circular in nature, and they go on and on and on until the mods arrive. Neither you nor Dean gives an inch in any of them, and it kind of makes the whole thing like yelling into an empty bucket and making the most noise.


    I agree, latency of 4ms is perceptible. To test this, play through a nice amp. Then play through the Kemper. You'll notice a difference in response or immediacy, it's less to do with the sound being delayed than your fingers and your brain telling you that there's an almost imperceptible lag. I remember user viabcroce telling us about an artist friend of his who said the same thing about the Kemper back in 2013, 2014 I think.


    Dean is also right, 4ms is not enough latency to prevent good music from being played at home or on the stage.

  • I agree, latency of 4ms is perceptible. To test this, play through a nice amp. Then play through the Kemper. You'll notice a difference in response or immediacy, it's less to do with the sound being delayed than your fingers and your brain telling you that there's an almost imperceptible lag.


    Everyone is accustomed to the latency related to typical sound travel because it's a factor from birth. It's when you tack on additional latency with respect to hardware processing that it becomes perceptible.


    Dean is also right, 4ms is not enough latency to prevent good music from being played at home or on the stage.


    Like I said, not a deal breaker but the lower the better.

  • Not that I have a problem with these kinds of debates on the forum, but these arguments seem to be circular in nature

    Thats why I called it magic circle. ;)


    But maybe this is a more realistic picture:
    Alchemists and later also more serious scientists dreamed of the peteuum mobile.
    Once set in motion, it remains in motion for ever without further energy supply from outside.
    They found one ^^

    Edited once, last by Sharry ().

  • I love the Kemper like all of you. I did recently purchase the AX8 because of convenience as I am nothing more than a gigging musician. So so so so nice to have a guitar and single light bag to carry to every gig. But it's not perfect. I really miss the beat scanner function of the kemper, and morphing.. I like that feature a lot for gigging. I also HATE to tweak sounds to death (which is unfortunately required at least for the first six moths of owning an AXE product to get sounds in the ball park). After 3 months and 15 gigs, I still am tweaking amp tones, volume levels, EQs, etc... My Kemper is set up just the way I like it (from a tonal/volume per patch/solo levels/etc perspective). It took me a while, but it is great for gigging now. So I found myself pulling the kemper out for my last gig, but hating having to lug everything around. I would LOVE a Kemper all-in-one floor unit to replace my full sized Kemper rack and floor board... oh, and updated effects (drives and rotary and tremolo in particular) to match the AXE would be great. Little things like a better screen or scribble strips in the floor board would be excellent too... I'm sure there are a TON of Kemper users just like me that would pay to get a floor unit, upload my backup rigs, and head off to a gig!

  • I'm sure there are a TON of Kemper users just like me that would pay to get a floor unit, upload my backup rigs, and head off to a gig!

    I'm one of them who dream about.
    The Kemper 1 at home and/or rehearsal room to tweak the sounds and make all settings.
    The floorboard for GIG's.


    But there are no signs that this will be available for purchase in the near future. :/

  • Line 6 does not make pro audio gear. They make cheap consumer gear with components that are prone to failure. "Runaway success" is like saying the speaker on your iPhone is a runaway success for speakers creating rich and authentic music playback. Let's not worry about what Line6 is doing, they will continue making garbage on a cyclical basis that will eventually end up in a landfill.


    Everybody else is trying to play catchup, Fractal included. We don't want a Kemper that is scraping ideas from the bottom of the barrel.If Kemper and UA teamed up to make a product, I think we would see some real innovation. I don't think we need a second Kemper, but maybe there's room for a second product which serves an entirely different purpose.


    Hahaha! This was laughable. Must be a lame attempt at getting this thread shut down -_-.


    But I'll give you a serious reply, just to bring this thread back on topic. If the people at Kemper are smart, AND THEY ARE, they'll pay attention to the market and the successes of their competitors. That's how they can stay relevant. And this is good for everyone, because that's really how products get better faster. Otherwise, things remain stagnant.

  • I'm one of them who dream about.The Kemper 1 at home and/or rehearsal room to tweak the sounds and make all settings.
    The floorboard for GIG's.


    But there are no signs that this will be available for purchase in the near future. :/

    The difference between a floorboard based KPA and the current KPA with Remote = 1 bag. ONE bag!! And that's in my case: KPA in one bag, Remote in the other. A lot of us use the original KPA gigbag which fits both the Remote and the KPA.


    But hey, if there will be a floorbased KPA coming out, I'll be the first to buy it :D
    Till then I'm happy with my 19" KPA in the truck for gigs (including crew) and my toaster for rehearsal / at home.

  • The difference between a floorboard based KPA and the current KPA with Remote = 1 bag. ONE bag!! And that's in my case: KPA in one bag, Remote in the other. A lot of us use the original KPA gigbag which fits both the Remote and the KPA.

    The same goes for me. Even I have only one bag for both. The significant difference for me is about 5,5 kg.


    From a certain age on, these count double. :/;)

  • I won't cos I like the powered version...Easier to use like an amp and foot controller for me as I always run my own un-powered monitor.


    As an alternative product kinda get it but not instead of...


    Right I'm definitely going to shut up now...

  • Line 6 does not make pro audio gear. They make cheap consumer gear with components that are prone to failure. "Runaway success" is like saying the speaker on your iPhone is a runaway success for speakers creating rich and authentic music playback. Let's not worry about what Line6 is doing, they will continue making garbage on a cyclical basis that will eventually end up in a landfill.


    Everybody else is trying to play catchup, Fractal included. We don't want a Kemper that is scraping ideas from the bottom of the barrel.If Kemper and UA teamed up to make a product, I think we would see some real innovation. I don't think we need a second Kemper, but maybe there's room for a second product which serves an entirely different purpose.

    Silly analogy. Kemper does not live in a space protected from evolving user needs, competitive forces or whatever new, better price/performance technology allows for. Odds are stacked against such a scenario. I think the evolution of the Access Virus may be one indication of CKs way of thinking, maybe another is the decline in significant new software features lately. Something is brewing. :) IMHO.