Kemper 2 expectations

  • I think a kemper 2 or kemper floorboard must be in the works. Pure speculation on my part but it just makes commercial sense. It would also make sense to include an editor that is also backward compatible with the kemper 1. I can’t see the point of developing an editor exclusively for kemper 1 now if you are already know a new product with a better feature set is being developed.


    Do I need it? I don’t think so. I’m concentrating on getting the most out of the kemper 1 and playing guitar!

  • @scratch17 - Which Apollo are you using? The Silverface Quad at least has the ability to resample SPDIF directly to any rate from it's console. I have my KPA connected via SPDIF and can use any rate I want within my project without issue and saving two analog inputs for other things.


    Of course what I'm saying doesn't detract from your remarks about the necessity to have slaved SPDIF or other rates in the Kemper for other users, but it is possible via UAD interfaces at least to not be confined to 44.1k when using SPDIF.

  • Have the ability to route the stomps and effects blocks to be anywhere i.e. if you needed more stomps in front you could route individual x,mod,delay,reverb, to act as stomps in front and vice versa. Maybe you need the stomps to be post amp stack thus giving you 4 extra blocks for whatever. Or like the other way giving the ability to let's say, use the X and mod slot in front giving you 6 blocks in the front. A small extra menu or tick box with a dial could let you put anything anywhere. Hope this helps for what it's worth.

  • Quote from Per

    Which Apollo are you using? The Silverface Quad at least has the ability to resample SPDIF directly to any rate from it's console. I have my KPA connected via SPDIF and can use any rate I want within my project without issue and saving two analog inputs for other things.

    Yes. That is correct at the input of the S/PDIF but not at the output. You can set the KPA as slave and set the S/PDIF on either Apollo (SF) or Apollo 8 (BF) to 44.1 kHz and record at any sample rate you want. I own a SF Quad and a BF Duo.


    For re-amping purposes, you cannot just connect the S/PDIF output to the Kemper. There is no sample rate conversion at the S/PDIF output of the Apollo. So it will be clocked at whatever sample rate the project was used for your project. You could make a temporary master running at 44.1 of just the track you wanted to re-amp, but that is a pain in the butt.


    I just use the analog return from my Apollo to send a track back to the Kemper for re-amping. Again, this is not an optimal way to implement this process. While my Apollo has a quality D/A processor, as does the Kemper, the redundant conversion steps add just a little more noise and distortion. It is not that on that track you could tell the difference if you compared the two side by side. It is that the cumulative effect of such corruptions could become audible by the end of a project.


    BTW, the Behringer Ultramatch sample rate converter retails for $200. It would avoid this issue all together. It has two way SRC for a single device. Better still is the Mutec MC-4, but it retails for $800. It has 8 channels of bi-directional SRC for ADAT, AES3 or S/PDIF sources with word clock in and out.


    The Mutec might become a necessity for complex setups. If you have multiple digital audio devices that you need to connect together with a master clock source, spending the $800 for it might make sense. This might be a consequence of the Kemper's requirement that it must act as the master clock, with other devices connected becoming slaves.


    None of these issues would arise if a new version of the Kemper had no such master/slave requirement, had word clock inputs and outputs, and could run at what most manufacturers today consider to be professional sample rates. As a project studio owner, I strive to record at 96 kHz sample rate for a number of reasons, even if I only have a CD release in mind. I do so for a number of reasons.


    First of all, I want to record with a high sample rate so that I can keep the highest quality master possible. Even if I need to master a 44.1 kHz copy, I am starting with the best possible source. I also have the ability to release a higher sample rate version of the project if called upon later by the client.


    Second, I want real time latency to be as low as possible. My studio is guitar oriented. As I posted above, I like to use my Apollos and UAD plugins in real time recordings of guitar. By recording at 96 kHz I get the lowest possible latency, without putting strain on my 2011 iMac. (If I had a more powerful Mac, I'd record at 192 kHz to lower latency even further).


    When I am using a Unison plugin, it must be placed in a Unison slot in the UAD Console 2 application. Many of my guitar pedal and amp sims are Unison, so they must be recorded this way. However, I use the Apollo's Live Track Mode for non Unison plugins. This avoids the Console 2 app. I insert the UA plugin into my DAW's channel slot. While there is a small increase in latency when recording this way,
    I can use Apollo Satellites to host the plugin(s). Either way, the lower the round trip latency, the better.


    I'd also like to say thanks to the forum members who have indicated support for my position on a Kemper V2. And thanks to those who have not flamed me for posting my opinion, even though many of you must heartily disagree. I don't post on this forum much because I have been flamed so often. In fact, I made a less comprehensive post on this subject a short while ago here:


    New KPA at Musikmesse 2018?


    I got roasted.


    I know that a member's status on forums usually depends on the number of posts you have made. My status is "beginner". I am no beginner. I am 64 years old, and have been working with pro audio gear since I took the RIAA course at Marc Sound in Ottawa Canada under Dr. Floyd Toole in 1977. I have also been playing guitar for over 50 years. I consider myself as knowledgeable but not expert. I point this out so people in these forums consider opinions of any poster equally, on the merits of the information posted. I have been incorrect before in some posts. I will err again.


  • Just an FYI, @scratch17. When you use UAD plugins at 96 kHz, the latency increases. The lowest possible latency is at 44.1khz.

  • I'd also like to say thanks to the forum members who have indicated support for my position on a Kemper V2. And thanks to those who have not flamed me for posting my opinion, even though many of you must heartily disagree. I don't post on this forum much because I have been flamed so often. In fact, I made a less comprehensive post on this subject a short while ago here:


    New KPA at Musikmesse 2018?


    I got roasted.

    No, you weren’t roasted at all. Please indicate where.
    But you posted


    'I have had a KPA since early 2014. I love the way that profiling sounds. But the KPA is losing ground rapidly to Fractal with the FX 3 and Line 6 with the Helix.


    My patience is dwindling. If Kemper does not do an upgrade soon, I am going to check out the FX 3.'


    which contain assumptions you cannot back up (losing ground rapidly).
    Also threatening to 'going to check out the FX 3' sounds a bit childish and hyperbole, at least in my world, which lead to my answer, all in good spirit though.


    Peace
    Ingolf

  • the same thing happens with web hosting industry,


    sometimes there are customers arguing that they need a permission by default, based on fact that competitors "supply that as default" what not always is true, also they ask for discounts or more space based on competitors offers,


    this areas are so complete that are space to all kind of products, services or offers...


    if there is something else on FX3 that is really a need for you, so go for it.


    i do not see myself trading my kemper to another gear, even with the current offers of cheaper speakers simulators that are great sounding and compact


    kemper gives me many convenience that i need, but maybe not to all people and that not mean that the company's product can make everyones happy, or either need to make everyone satisfied...


    just my two cents ; )


  • I really dont want to "troll" or "flame" you..I just would like to hear how all this sounds..how does a guitar sound like with all this above with 8(!!!!) effects,multiple dynamics tools (compressors,limiters etc) and still added external fx-hardware...what is the acoustical end result of such a thing as descibed in your above post;More so since 90% of what you like to see in the Kemper2 is already available in much better quality (than any guitar modeler can ever deliever) in form of top class plug-in bundles for your DAW which for sure cost much less together with a Kemper1 than than what you would pay for a Kemper2 to include all this^^^^ above.

  • I really dont want to "troll" or "flame" you..I just would like to hear how all this sounds..how does a guitar sound like with all this above with 8(!!!!) effects,multiple dynamics tools (compressors,limiters etc) and still added external fx-hardware...what is the acoustical end result of such a thing as descibed in your above post;More so since 90% of what you like to see in the Kemper2 is already available in much better quality (than any guitar modeler can ever deliever) in form of top class plug-in bundles for your DAW which for sure cost much less together with a Kemper1 than than what you would pay for a Kemper2 to include all this^^^^ above.

    I have an Axe FX II preset that involves the KPA in the loop that uses 8 effects blocks, 2 compressors and a multicompressor from the Axe FX and 5 effects slots in the KPA. That may seem like overkill for others but it's not for me, and I couldn't achieve that sound with the KPA alone. Yes, you can use plugins, but using them in real-time (ie. while playing) incurs more latency, which can affect feel.

  • @ColdFrixion


    If I understand you right you record guitar with (roughly) a dozen fx,three dynamics(lets just pretend the multi-comp is one tool) ALREADY in the chain and none of these afterwards in the mix;


    In the example I cited, all of the effects and dynamics reside exclusively in the Axe FX and KPA. None of them are added later (post recording via plugins) in the mix.

  • I have an Axe FX II preset that involves the KPA in the loop that uses 8 effects blocks, 2 compressors and a multicompressor from the Axe FX and 5 effects slots in the KPA. That may seem like overkill for others but it's not for me, and I couldn't achieve that sound with the KPA alone. Yes, you can use plugins, but using them in real-time (ie. while playing) incurs more latency, which can affect feel.

    3 or even up to 10 ms delay is the equivalent of 3 meters or 10 meters away from the amp, Many, if not most, computer systems can achieve much less latency, so latency is really no longer an issue.


    The quality and sounds of many plugins are unsurpassed nowadays without having to spend a $2500 for an AXE FX II or III , actually much much less for much better quality, check out some of soundtoys, Lexicon or eventide just to name a few, don't believe the hype, try even some of the cheap plugins and trust your ears and you will hear how good they can be without the need for spending the money on an AXE FX

  • 3 or even up to 10 ms delay is the equivalent of 3 meters or 10 meters away from the amp, Many, if not most, computer systems can achieve much less latency, so latency is really no longer an issue.
    The quality and sounds of many plugins are unsurpassed nowadays without having to spend a $2500 for an AXE FX II or III , actually much much less for much better quality, check out some of soundtoys, Lexicon or eventide just to name a few.

    I can perceive a difference in latency between plugging straight into the Axe FX or KPA and playing while monitoring through my DAW using plugins. I also own the Lexicon plugin, as well as LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven, which is based on the Bricasti M7, et al. There are some great plugins out there, but every algorithm gives a plugin its flavor just like various hardware effects units impart their own flavor, which is why engineers don't use a single outboard EQ, compressor or reverb. Variety. I happen to prefer the flavor of the reverbs and delays in the Axe FX, but that's me. The fact I can use them at a lower latency is a bonus.

  • I can perceive a difference in latency between plugging straight into the Axe FX or KPA and playing with monitoring enabled through my DAW using plugins....

    You need to check your audio interface , round-trip latency 3 to 10ms can be achieved by most audio interfaces. Note that I said round-trip latency because some, not so good, audio interfaces add more latency that isn't reported to your DAW so if you're perceiving it, its most likely a lot more than is being reported by your DAW.


    if someone will say that they perceive playing 3 to 10 feet (one to three meters) away from the amp as problematic I would say it's simply and purely a personal situation that has nothing to do with playing music or guitar. think about it most guitar cables that are sold are 10 ft (corresponds to 10ms)


    Guitar players have been performing as they still do everyday in similar distances, and many times much further away.


    Double check your audio interface settings and test it yourself to measure the actual latency your getting and not what your DAW is reporting..

  • Line 6 does not make pro audio gear. They make cheap consumer gear with components that are prone to failure. "Runaway success" is like saying the speaker on your iPhone is a runaway success for speakers creating rich and authentic music playback. Let's not worry about what Line6 is doing, they will continue making garbage on a cyclical basis that will eventually end up in a landfill.


    Everybody else is trying to play catchup, Fractal included. We don't want a Kemper that is scraping ideas from the bottom of the barrel.If Kemper and UA teamed up to make a product, I think we would see some real innovation. I don't think we need a second Kemper, but maybe there's room for a second product which serves an entirely different purpose.



    1. Line 6 has their next platform out and appears to be a runaway success.
    2. Fractal has their next move in place.
    3. Software such as S-Gear, Mercuriall Spark etc. has never been better.

  • You need to check your audio interface , round-trip latency 3 to 10ms can be achieved by most audio interfaces.


    The latency is 4ms, and yes, I can perceive it. A lot of people can. It's easy to demonstrate using the Haas effect. Record two identical guitar samples, pan both hard left and right and delay one of the samples by 4ms. The result will sound like a single sample with some stereo width added to a lot of ears, however there are definitely people who can perceive the latency. Not a major deal breaker but perceptible nonetheless.

  • The latency is 4ms, and yes, I can perceive it....

    What latency? Total round trip , input latency, or output latency? Where are you getting this number from?


    You're not perceiving 4ms Round trip latency unless you're also able to hear the thunder at the same time as you see lightning in the horizon miles away :D or you can also perceive the latency when you play a baby Grand Piano (not a full Grand) and can perceive the 3ms from the time the hammer strikes the string on the piano. till the sound gets to your ears.


    Even if you where perceiving a 4ms Round trip latency.. why would it be a problem playing 4 ft away from your amp? Most if not all musicians quickly adjust to latencies up to 10 ms without any downside whatsoever.

  • I really dont want to "troll" or "flame" you..I just would like to hear how all this sounds..how does a guitar sound like with all this above with 8(!!!!) effects,multiple dynamics tools (compressors,limiters etc) and still added external fx-hardware...what is the acoustical end result of such a thing as descibed in your above post

    Hi Nikos. I should clarify. I want flexibility. Not more quantity. I did not mean I would use 8 effects simultaneously. I would like to be able to connect multiple devices and use them selectively without constantly re-patching. I want to save my aching back, yet be able to place almost any device in any position in my guitar's signal chain.

  • What latency? Total round trip , input latency, or output latency? Where are you getting this number from?
    You're not perceiving 4ms Round trip latency unless you're also able to hear the thunder at the same time as you see lightning in the horizon miles away :D or you can also perceive the latency when you play a baby Grand Piano and can perceive the 3ms from the time the hammer strikes the string on the piano. till the sound gets to your ears.


    Even if you where perceiving a 4ms Round trip latency.. why would it be a problem playing 4 ft away from your amp? Most if not all musicians quickly adjust to latencies up to 10 ms without any downside whatsoever.

    Total round trip, and what difference does it make to you whether I or anyone else can or can't perceive it or prefer a lower latency? If you don't care about lower latencies, great. If 4ms doesn't bother you, great. I clearly explicated how you can verify the perceptibility of 4ms via the Haas effect, so try it yourself. It's not debatable, however I already said it's not a deal breaker but that I prefer as low a latency as possible because I'm a bit sensitive to it. I'm hardly alone, but that's irrelevant. I honestly couldn't care less what you or 1,000 other guitarists prefer latency wise. I'm just stating my experience and preference.