Finally I got an Amp in the room sound from the Kemper through my studio monitors!! (or very close)

  • Ok so here it goes...


    I have a friend who after having me over to his house to profile a couple of his amps bought a Kemper for himself (Powered Head). He love the fact that the profiles sounded almost identical and that the feel was there unlike other units. Once he received his Kemper and started playing through it, he noticed that no matter how hard or soft he hit the strings the volume wouldn't go up or down like on his amp. I asked him to bring his Kemper and cab over to my house so that we could do some experimenting. I plugged my Kemper to my studio monitors and he plugged his to his 2x12 cab. Both Kempers were reacting the same way so we knew the speakers weren't the problem. The amp profile would start to breakup the harder you hit the strings but the volume would not increase as expected. So we started digging into the parameters to see if we could figure out what was causing this behavior.


    After a lot of tweaking using his equipment, we figured out that by turning the compression in the Amp block all the way down and the Volume of the Amp (in the amp block) all the way up the volume of the profile would increase or decrease depending on how hard you hit the strings. Talk about real feel now, it was incredible, the volume and amp breakup was happening by how hard or soft you hit the strings. 8o:thumbsup: This is most noticeable in a clean to semi-distorted rigs, but even noticeable on heavy distorted rigs.


    The next thing that happened was very unexpected. I decided to make the same changes to the Amp block of my Kemper which was connected to my studio speakers to see if I got the same result. What happened was that I got the same result PLUS my studio monitors almost sounded like his CAB in the room. We just looked at each other like what just happened. I have two M-Audio BX5's and they sounded like his 2x12 cab. I don't know how the Amp block volume works but let me tell you, the Kemper now sounds like I am playing through a real CAB in the room. I think this is something we all crave but haven't been able to accomplish with digital units. Maybe it has something to do with the Amp being more in front or present in the "profile" which makes it sound like it's right in front of you. I don't know how this will translate to the front of the house or in a recording but will find out this weekend. However, I am loving the sound coming out of my studio monitors right now.


    I would like to know if anyone else has tried this or is willing to try it and give me some feedback as to your experience.

  • Interesting. I will try that :)

  • ... by turning the compression in the Amp block all the way down ...

    Just out of curiosity, was the Compressor in the Amp block automatically set during the profiling process? Would be great if you could investigate this bit of knowledge. For example, how was the compressor setting in the reference rig before you hit "Profile"? If you lower the Compressor setting in the reference rig and then run the profiling process again, how does the Compressor in the resulting profile look?


    I think this would be very helpful to know. :)


    Cheers
    Martin

  • Of course turning off the compressor helps increase the dynamic range.


    When you turned up the amp block volume did you turned down the master volume?


    If not, you just turned up the overall volume. When increasing the volume, it's expected to get a wider dynamic range because you can hear much better the notes that you hit softly (that you couldnt hear before) and of course you hear much louder the notes that you hit hard. I believe Kemper does that very well, it doesn't lack dynamics at all especially with good clean / low gain profiles.


    I guess a good test would be to compare the amp and the Kemper through monitors both at the same volume.

  • Just out of curiosity, was the Compressor in the Amp block automatically set during the profiling process? Would be great if you could investigate this bit of knowledge. For example, how was the compressor setting in the reference rig before you hit "Profile"? If you lower the Compressor setting in the reference rig and then run the profiling process again, how does the Compressor in the resulting profile look?
    I think this would be very helpful to know. :)


    Cheers
    Martin

    We profiled his amp early last year and hadn't been able to get together until yesterday. I can't remember all the details but I normally select a rig that resembles the rig I am going to profile and hit profile. I don't change any parameters before profiling. We made the same Amp block changes to multiple rigs and the all had the same effect. Some rigs didn't even have any compression in the amp block. I just made this discovery yesterday so I have to do more experimenting.

  • Of course turning off the compressor helps increase the dynamic range.
    When you turned up the amp block volume did you turned down the master volume?


    If not, you just turned up the overall volume. When increasing the volume, it's expected to get a wider dynamic range because you can hear much better the notes that you hit softly (that you couldnt hear before) and of course you hear much louder the notes that you hit hard. I believe Kemper does that very well, it doesn't lack dynamics at all especially with good clean / low gain profiles.


    I guess a good test would be to compare the amp and the Kemper through monitors both at the same volume.

    I did have to lower the master volume as one would expect.


    Don't get me wrong the Kemper did have some of the volume increase when the strings were picked harder but it wasn't very noticeable even with no compression. What made a huge difference was when the Amp block volume was raised.

  • Did you test if raising the rig and/or output volume accomplished the same thing?

    Kemper PowerRack | Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune

  • The Amp-block compression should be 0 after doing a profile. The profiling process itself is measuring the amps natural compression, this parameter is there to let a user manually increase this type of compression.
    So if the value were more than zero, someone have manually adjusted that for some reason...
    Turning down/off the compression def. gonna give You a bigger dynamic range and the average level usually drops, making You increase the volume to compensate and as a result You will get much larger volume peaks.
    (this is sometimes a problem and is what a compressor is designed to solve)

  • The Amp-block compression should be 0 after doing a profile. The profiling process itself is measuring the amps natural compression, this parameter is there to let a user manually increase this type of compression.
    So if the value were more than zero, someone have manually adjusted that for some reason...
    Turning down/off the compression def. gonna give You a bigger dynamic range and the average level usually drops, making You increase the volume to compensate and as a result You will get much larger volume peaks.
    (this is sometimes a problem and is what a compressor is designed to solve)

    Good to know. I also have some of MBritts profiles and noticed the compression parameter is active on his profiles. I liked better the way his profiles sounded once I made the changes I talked about. The difference is that you get more of an amp in the room sound rather than through studio monitor.

  • I wait for an official statement from Don or Burkhard. I don’t think tha the amp comp is the solution for the amp in the room sound. Thousands of commercial profiles are done with ampcomp off and i think also M. Britts are tweaked afterwards. The amp volume will affect the dynamic? That would be new for me.


    Please Don or Burkhard, chime in and give us a comment.


    Cheers
    Frank

  • I wait for an official statement from Don or Burkhard. I don’t think tha the amp comp is the solution for the amp in the room sound. Thousands of commercial profiles are done with ampcomp off and i think also M. Britts are tweaked afterwards. The amp volume will affect the dynamic? That would be new for me.


    Please Don or Burkhard, chime in and give us a comment.


    Cheers
    Frank

    I am not saying that the compressor is the solution. I was just letting everyone know what I found and to see if everyone else gets the same results. Try it and give us your feedback. You don't have to wait for an official statement. I am one of those people who like to try things myself and let the ears be the judge.

  • I wait for an official statement from Don or Burkhard. I don’t think tha the amp comp is the solution for the amp in the room sound. Thousands of commercial profiles are done with ampcomp off and i think also M. Britts are tweaked afterwards. The amp volume will affect the dynamic? That would be new for me.


    Please Don or Burkhard, chime in and give us a comment.


    Cheers
    Frank

    I think you may get a faster response if you tag @DonPetersen and @Burkhard

  • Did that as well but the effect wasn't as noticeable as when increasing the Amp block volume. Again I have to play with it some more. Keep the ideas coming. I appreciate all the input.

    Ok. Not near my rig right now so let us know what you find.

    Kemper PowerRack | Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune

  • by turning the compression in the Amp block all the way down and the Volume of the Amp (in the amp block) all the way up the volume of the profile would increase or decrease depending on how hard you hit the strings.

    @robles1999


    The Compression parameter in the AMPLIFIER section is used to even out volume differences that occur when you roll back the volume pot on your guitar to clean up the sound. That's it's main purpose.
    So yes, when you turn it down the dynamic range increases (back to 'normal'). :D


    When a Profile is created, the Compression value is at zero.
    The volume controls in the Profiler are just that: level controls, they don't change the sound or add saturation.


    hope that clarifies a few things. ;)

  • Many thx Don to clear it up so fast.


    I was afraid that I missunderstood the functions. Thomas Dill has reffered about it when I met him in Collogne at the kemper workshop. There is no "amp in the room" parameter but using this two parameter would give an fx that your hear the sound more thicker imho. When I use the amp comp up to 3,5 or 4 a bassy fx chimed in but I never had the experience that the dynamic increases. When I play Bert's profiles, especially the chrunch ones, there are a lot of dynamics and I wont affect the dynamic of the volume knobs. So normally I dont touch the amp compressor ecept an profile sounds too thin.

  • The most critical thing I found was just make sure that your output doesn’t clip. I.e. to turn up the volume turn up your power amp rather than the volume in any section of the Kemper and keep the light peaking at most in bright green briefly, never allow it to go yellow or above.


    Then try messing around with the pure cab setting and space settings, they have defaults you may not like. Finally you can adjust the output eq to compensate for any tonal characteristics your monitors may impart.

  • Thank for the information. I understand the function of the compression. I would like to know what is happening in the profile when we raise the Amp block volume. That to me is making a huge difference on how the profile is perceived by my ears. I am not sure if anyone is actually trying this before answering or chiming in.

  • They’re just output level controls as Don said. The difference you felt was the difference of perception at volume, I.e. loud stuff always sounds better, and normally you play your amp loud, but people have a tendency to monitor quietly and expect the same sort of sound in their space.


    The level controls in the Kemper are completely clean, a multiplier for the sample value only no funky modeling, no coloration or distortion or anything else will happen. The amp volume is just a way to set the rigs volume for leveling when going between multiple rigs.


    You can experiment with this to see by placing a distortion stomp in the x slot on a rig and tlurning up and of the various level values, that includes things like imput sens settings. If these were controlling volume before the speaker sim or before anything else you would now hear that distortion getting more distorted as the level values increases, just like when you plug a guitar into a stomp and adjust the controls in your guitar, instead you’ll hear only that things get quieter or louder. This means that these controls are just controlling the output volume of the Kemper as a whole, they are all methods af accessing exactly the same thing.


    If you overdrive the output of the Kemper you will eventually get additional distortion - digital clipping to be precise this is unforgiving harsh buzzy distortion that you most probably don’t want (and there are stomps for this if you do). This pushes things away from the original source. So keep it mostly dark green on the output and simply raise the volume on your monitors or power amp instead.


    Volume is key to getting an in the room sound, but it’s just a matter of things being as loud as a real amp.