Direct profiles

    Hi all


    I purchased a Pak with direct profiles in it...can I simply select an IR cab from the KPA and use it thru FOH or do I need a DI box in the chain somewhere. Figured i would check before destroying the PA!


    Thank you
    Richie

    The Profiler sends out line level signal on all outputs (ignoring the Direct Send for now that can deliver instrument level) except the Speaker Output on the models with a power amp, which is obviously speaker level.


    Speaker level is only for standard guitar cabinets and the somewhat rarer passive FRFR monitors.


    The type of Profile (Studio, DI, Direct Amp) is not the issue, the type of output (see above) is.


    However be aware that a DI Profile means that only a preamp was profiled, meaning the influence of the power amp is missing. You may find that these Profiles are somewhat lacking.


    A preamp only Profile only makes sense if you are using a tube power amp.


    hth

    Hi Don,


    I am very surprised. A DI profile represent only the preamp. That is new for me. I have read in the German manual: A DI profile represent the complete amp without cab and mic (page 27).
    Page 30: DI profiles are profiles from the poweramp and the preamp....


    What is right?


    Cheers
    Frank

    Thank you both, this is the part that confused me too. I did read the deep reference guide and assumed I could simply select an IR cab/mic and bam-have a profile to use FOH . I do have the KPA powered unit


    Richie

    Well, I hate to say it, but this time Don is wrong. :)

    I don't think it's a matter of being wrong, it's just a matter of consistency in what term to use.


    Don is right because he's talking about "DI" to mean that when we talk about a tube amp with a DI, the DI signal is coming from the PREAMP. Many of those amps have DI signal with Cab SIm for recording., Also the "Send" from the FX loop in the tube amp is Preamp only but without the speaker emulation /cab sim and many consider that to be same as line out or DI out.



    If we're talking about the Kemper, I believe the DI profiles sold by commercial sellers are achieved by using a DI box to handle the speaker load and convert it to DI signal for the Kemper to profile, but sellers need to confirm that they didn't simply draw from the Line out or FX send on the tube amp.


    I Personally hate when DI only profiles are sold and would rather get merged profiles because they would include both DI and studio profile.where the DI profile will include the power amp also. The reason I prefer this is knowing that there was some testing and confirmation that the merged profile agreed to the the studio profile so we know that the profile was tested and it's confirmed that nothing was really way off. If I connect my DI to the tube amp speaker out and start profiling I can make so many profiles in minutes without any testing because the DI profile doesn't lend itself to be tested properly due to the the HI Fizz etc.


    To answer the OP, the answer is NO you don't need a DI box, your understanding is correct, simply swap cabinet on the KPA until you find something that sounds good. Also heed what Don said and make sure that those profiles were not just profiles that were derived from the FX loop send which would make the Preamp only. Not that they would sound bad. Some preamp tones are really good. HTH

    Edited 3 times, last by Dean_R ().

    Like 1

    Although the terms are commonly confused, a Direct Amplifier Profile is not the same as a DI Profile.


    A DI Profile is “Preamp only”. It is meant to be used with a Power amp (most likely a tube power amp) and a guitar speaker cabinet. Or, a DI Profile can be created to reproduce the sound of a guitar processor (Axe,Helix, etc)


    A Direct Amplifier Profile contains the sound of “Preamp+Power amp”, and a Kemper Cab can be added to it to create the equivalent of a Merged Profile for FOH or full range Monitor.


    Edit: @Dean_R and I were both answering at the same time. I’m glad we both had the same answer :)

    Direct Profile = most likely taken from the Fx send or or from a preamp only = preamp only


    Direct Amp Profile = taken from the speaker (!) output with a DI box that can handle speaker level signals = contains preamp, power amp and power amp/cabinet interaction


    Merged Profile = a Studio Profile and a Direct Amp Profile taken from a otherwise identical setup, that were merged in the Profiler. these contain all the information of a Studio Profile, but also the authentic information about where the amp ands and the cabinet begins. In a Studio Profile this point of separation is determined by an algorithm.

    Quote from DonPetersen

    Direct Profile = most likely taken from the Fx send or or from a preamp only = preamp only


    Direct Amp Profile = taken from the speaker (!) output with a DI box that can handle speaker level signals = contains preamp, power amp and power amp/cabinet interaction

    Right. To be fair the OP didn’t tell if he got direct amp profiles or DI profiles taken from the FX send without any Poweramp involved.
    Therefore the remarks by @Dean_R and @paults about using the right terminology are valid. I need to read more carefully before posting. ;)

    Quote from DonPetersen

    Direct Profile = most likely taken from the Fx send or or from a preamp only = preamp only


    Direct Amp Profile = taken from the speaker (!) output with a DI box that can handle speaker level signals = contains preamp, power amp and power amp/cabinet interaction


    Merged Profile = a Studio Profile and a Direct Amp Profile taken from a otherwise identical setup, that were merged in the Profiler. these contain all the information of a Studio Profile, but also the authentic information about where the amp ands and the cabinet begins. In a Studio Profile this point of separation is determined by an algorithm.

    Hi Don,


    Hmmm, so I think the German manual is wrong.
    It's definitely written otherwise. See page 27.


    Page 27= Directprofile taken from the speaker out with a DI box. Representing the complete amp, without speaker and mic. No word about representing only the preamp.


    So it's confusing. On page 30 : Direct amp profiles consist preamp and poweramp ( for me the same what is written on page 27 in the German manual).


    Finally it would be nice to know how to see if it's only a preamp or a preamp/ poweramp profile. Where can I identify this if the difference is there?


    I played a long time with a linear poweramp and a 2x12 mesa boogie slant v30 celestion and DI profiles. I changed from a tube poweramp to the linear transistor poweramp because the 'DI" profiles which I used sounded very bad with the tube poweramp. After changing to the transistor poweramp the sound was much better, but finally I changed complete to frfr. Maybe I have used the wrong profiles?


    Cheers
    Frank

    Quote from Ingolf

    Right. To be fair the OP didn’t tell if he got direct amp profiles or DI profiles taken from the FX send without any Poweramp involved.Therefore the remarks by @Dean_R and @paults about using the right terminology are valid. I need to read more carefully before posting. ;)

    I am a little bit off. I understand what is meant, but for me it's written otherwise in German manual.
    I take a glass of wine and read again.....

    The term "Direct Profiles" describes a "family" of profiles that were made without using a microphone. Direct amp profiles belong to that family. A Profile taken from the line out of a preamp is also a direct profile but without the power amp part.

    Quote from hjscheffler

    The term "Direct Profiles" describes a "family" of profiles that were made without using a microphone. Direct amp profiles belong to that family. A Profile taken from the line out of a preamp is also a direct profile but without the power amp part.

    Thx Hans Jörg,
    But how to see what kind of DI it is when I see one on rm or from commercial sellers? Is there an item to check in the kpa? If not: Feature request


    Cheers
    Frank

    Quote from raiellojr

    Hi all


    I purchased a Pak with direct profiles in it...can I simply select an IR cab from the KPA and use it thru FOH or do I need a DI box in the chain somewhere. Figured i would check before destroying the PA!


    Thank you
    Richie

    Guess we are still missing an answer to your question:
    Your first assumption is correct.

    There is Direct Profiles in general, and as a subset there is what we call direct amp profiles.


    By our definition Direct Amp Profiles are taken from a tube power amp with a DI Box and a speaker as the load, imprinting the typical impedance curve into the Direct Amp Profile.


    Direct Profiles in general are identified by the Cab section being off and empty (!)


    Direct Amp Profiles cannot be differentiated by a techical sign.
    But they should easily be identified by the name and purpose of the specific rig.

    Thanks, ckemper. Yes, clear as mud! All the replies were great and good conversation. For this purpose, I am sure the seller meant Direct Amp Profile-I will simply select an IR cab from the KPA and use it thru FOH and should be good to go.


    Richie

    Thx ck,


    But is it only a preamp profile? Sorry to ask again, but I don't got it.


    Cheers
    Frank

    I call it full profiles and other profiles


    To get the most out of the KPA use full profiles and large frfr speakers = most fun and the best way to recreate different amp / speaker combinations.


    The speaker has a great part in the overall sound - even for DI profiles.
    Another speaker used during profiling = another sound
    A passive load used = very bad liveless sound
    (not a profiler problem - its phisics)


    For monitor purposes (DI out via a guitar amp and/or speaker) works the KPA fine even with full profiles.

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