Is our sound man wrong?

  • A band I play in has a practice space in a basement where it’s a small stage, and then a couple pretty loud powered mains facing back at the stage for monitoring (like K12s).


    Their soundman recently said I should now bring my cab for my Kemper as to “leave room in the monitors for vocals”. Note- I’ve played through the monitors for a long time and never thought it to be an issue..


    I’m not sure this is how speakers work. I’m of the school of thought that this will only make us louder as now I’ll have a cab basically pointed elsewhere and guitar frequencies will now be bouncing all around the room and we will all have to turn up to compensate.


    Do we have to leave room in speakers?


    Thanks
    Tom

  • Hi Tom,
    I am of the opinion that PA's are specifically designed to handle all kinds of instruments, vocals, line feeds, mic feeds etc. So, there is no problem with your guitar being mixed with the vocals or anything else. A touch of eq might help to separate things out a bit.
    Seeing as the KPA sends such a good quality signal from it's outputs, and that you can adjust the level to suit the mixer, then I can see no advantage in you taking a cab/frfr speaker to play through.
    My band is entirely mixed (including electric drums) when rehearsing. We use a small digital mixer and send the mix to our subs and tops when we want to keep an ear on how FOH sounds, and just to auxs for IEM mixes if we've left the heavy PA speakers behind.
    Works like a dream and everyone can hear what they need to.
    If you all know how to plug yourselves in, set levels on the mixer and figure out a FOH mix, do you really need your 'Sound man' anyway? Might save you some money...
    We don't have a 'Sound Man' we are just sound men! :)
    I hope this has been some use to you.
    Kind regards
    Pre-Amp

  • “Leaving room in the monitors for vocals” is a way of saying the vocals cannot comfortably be heard over the guitar volume in the Monitor mix.


    Can you turn your guitar down in the Monitor mix?

    Of course, but it's never been a problem before. I've always been beneath them.

  • Most of the time we don't have a sound man, but the artists have a consultant type guy who came and said that.

  • Most of the time we don't have a sound man, but the artists have a consultant type guy who came and said that.

    When in doubt, the soundman is always wrong. ;)
    Seriously though: Can you make a recording of the sum of signals going into the monitor mix? If this sounds balanced everything’s ok as is.

  • Maybe the problem is, if I understand this correctly, that the whole band get's the same monitoring which is the powered mains facing the stage. Did I get this right?


    It will be difficult to find a mix that suits everybody when you can only have one monitoring mix at all. FOH this is a different thing. But a "good mix" that's pleasant to listen to isn't necessarily good to play guitar.


    Let's face it, every musician probably wants to have himself a bit above the total mix to be able to play comfortably.


    So maybe thats the argument of the sound guy.

  • I personally prefer to have the vocals in separate monitors from instruments so I can hear and harmonize effectively. The whole reason I have my own floor wedge is so that I have my own monitor for my guitar and to keep it separate from the main mix - even if the guy wants to mix me in I keep my monitor. I know that probably sounds somewhat like perception-based-bias - especially when you have stage wash that mixes it all together any ways - but it puts me in my comfort zone.


    That said, I rarely get my wish, especially when in bands with keyboard players who rarely have their own stage amps (I can usually hear other guitarists just fine) and they are almost always mixed with the vocals.


    My guess is he has a hard time separating and mixing the individual instruments effectively, but it could also be perception-based bias on his part. Either way, I would probably propose to him to work together trying various scenarios to try to come up with the one that works best for your situation. You don't *need* a cab just because he says you need a cab, but you do need to find an appropriate way of working with him to come up with the best solution that works for the band as a cohesive whole.


    My .02.

  • I have no problem using the cab, it's just that you know. It wasn't a problem before.


    I'm just wondering if there is actually a difference in how a speaker operates - do they actually run out of physical "room" or is that just bullshit?

  • I have no problem using the cab, it's just that you know. It wasn't a problem before.


    I'm just wondering if there is actually a difference in how a speaker operates - do they actually run out of physical "room" or is that just bullshit?

    Out of physical room? No. Like @flyingheelhook hinted at, with a personal monitor you get a bit more separation more easily and a bit of 'more me' quite a bit more easily.
    But remember all the multitracked recordings we listen to through 2 stereo speakers only since the beginning of stereo recording, and before even with all the mono recordings. It's no problem.

  • Their soundman recently said I should now bring my cab for my Kemper as to “leave room in the monitors for vocals”. Note- I’ve played through the monitors for a long time and never thought it to be an issue..

    so just buy a nice personal powered monitor for your Kpa and be done with it. Have the sound guy pipe in your guitar to the others monitors as needed from your mixer feed.

    If you use FRFR the benefit of a merged profile is that the cabinet is totally separated in the profile.


    For my edification only... ;) Kemper/Axe-FX III/ Quad Cortex user

  • Just guessing, but:


    When you say it "wasn't a problem before", how WERE you doing it before?
    Did you have an amp in the room?
    Because it seems to me it's quite possible you WERE hearing some of yourself from the monitor mix and some from the direct amp behind you.


    And, if that was the case, then it's conceivable that now, when you want to depend entirely on the monitors, you might need to be louder in the mix than others are comfortable with, and used to.

  • There is only "not enough room" if:


    The PA/Monitor system is under powered
    the eq is bad.


    Whislt you don;t want to drown vocals and everythign else out uyou also need to be heard by the rest of the band. the problem with cabs is they are directional ( so you have to be louder so everyone can hear you) and will add to the front of house sound. Hence using monitors is ideal to balance the sound for everyone on stage/rehearsal.


    However, the easiest answer I feel is your own monitor which you control. I use a single unpowered wedge ( as I have the powered rack) ad no issues then...

  • I have no problem using the cab, it's just that you know. It wasn't a problem before.


    I'm just wondering if there is actually a difference in how a speaker operates - do they actually run out of physical "room" or is that just bullshit?

    To "leave room" for something in a PA-system only makes sense if the system is underpowered. You may OTOH always discuss the mix, or that some people like to hear the sounds of instruments and voices coming from different directions. I'm often practising in a setup facing a PA-system and find it helpful to create a little separation by panning instruments and voices a little to either side according to their position in the room. Only a spread that goes no more than 15% in either direction make it much easier to hear voices and instruments apart. Many musicians do however require to hear their own instrument or voice way above everything else, in which case you're back to individual monitors, headphones or IEMs to make it work for everyone.

  • We prefered personal Monitor. Each on can choose his mix.
    The guitar and my voice is louder on my Monitor than for the others.


    If there is only one Monitor for all then I could understand to ask for a Guitarspeaker.


    A FOH should be for all sound sources (Sometimes except drums).
    The transparency can be improved via frequency sharing and not with an addional box.

  • We had two guitars under the 4 speakers pointed. And the vocals on the top of the mix. I thought it was great. Much less room noise from the amp.

    Just guessing, but:


    When you say it "wasn't a problem before", how WERE you doing it before?
    Did you have an amp in the room?
    Because it seems to me it's quite possible you WERE hearing some of yourself from the monitor mix and some from the direct amp behind you.


    And, if that was the case, then it's conceivable that now, when you want to depend entirely on the monitors, you might need to be louder in the mix than others are comfortable with, and used to.

  • In a small room it can be really hard to hear anything in a band mix. Did you ask him if he was willing to pan the instruments to spread them across the stereo field?


    If you're not running a stereo monitor mix and each instrument is just layered on top of each other your singer(s) will struggle to hear themselves. In this situation having your own monitor and getting your sound out of the monitors is really helpful.