How are you guys running to FRFR

    Ok so I am less then thrilled right now with going to FRFR. In my studio, through my KRK 8's Kemper sounds glorious, magical, stunning, breathtaking. I just received an RCF NX 10 SMA. I ran from monitor out to the RCF. The magic is gone. Pretty lifeless, boxy, and sterile. None of the bounciness I feel through studio monitors. To be honest, I hate it. I just came from an Elevenrack into a QSC K 10 and it sounded MUCH better. I havent had a ton of time to try and dial it in but Im curious, do you guys run your frfr from monitor out of the Kemper or do you run it from the main outs? Does it make a difference? I havent tried it yet. I was expecting to be blown away by the rather pricey RCF, but so far Im repelled by it. It could be I havent had enough time to dial it in, but so far it seems to need ALOT of dialing.


    In my studio I run it spdif out to my interface and I just cant stop playing. The 5153 patch just puts a grin on my face everytime. Playing that patch through the RCF sounds way different. I plan on spending alot of time with it this week trying to get it worked out, but curious as to what output you guys are taking to your frfr. Also, do you guys have to drastically eq your sound for frfr? I didnt really have to for my Elevenrack. Any insight would be splendid.

    Quote from jeff5x0

    Ok so I am less then thrilled right now with going to FRFR. In my studio, through my KRK 8's Kemper sounds glorious, magical, stunning, breathtaking. I just received an RCF NX 10 SMA. I ran from monitor out to the RCF. The magic is gone. Pretty lifeless, boxy, and sterile. None of the bounciness I feel through studio monitors. To be honest, I hate it. I just came from an Elevenrack into a QSC K 10 and it sounded MUCH better. I havent had a ton of time to try and dial it in but Im curious, do you guys run your frfr from monitor out of the Kemper or do you run it from the main outs? Does it make a difference? I havent tried it yet. I was expecting to be blown away by the rather pricey RCF, but so far Im repelled by it. It could be I havent had enough time to dial it in, but so far it seems to need ALOT of dialing.


    In my studio I run it spdif out to my interface and I just cant stop playing. The 5153 patch just puts a grin on my face everytime. Playing that patch through the RCF sounds way different. I plan on spending alot of time with it this week trying to get it worked out, but curious as to what output you guys are taking to your frfr. Also, do you guys have to drastically eq your sound for frfr? I didnt really have to for my Elevenrack. Any insight would be splendid.


    Hi Jeff,
    I tried few times to go FRFR, but so far I always hated it, so I go now from monitor out(cabs disabled) to my power amp (Splawn Nitro loop return)and to 2x12 Cornford cab or 4x12 Splawn... I'm gonna to get also VHT 2502 or maybe DV Mark Little 40 and connect it to loop return..also used Rocktron Velocity 250,but real magic start when I have tube power amp and push the tubes a little..Then it really sings and fatsup nicely..Especially in live situation with loud drums in stage a good tube power amp seams to be the only real deal tonewise etc..Rocktron V250 while plaing home seemed to be ok, but on stage I found it plasic and lifeless...Pushing power tubes is the right way for me and KPA :-)..Of course in my studio on Yamaha msp10s the sound is great...but all stage monitors I tried so far sound like crap...I had the same sort of experience with my Axe Fx Ultra..
    Main out I send with cabs sims on to FOH..
    Cheers,

    Believe me Id love to run power amp into cab. I unfortunately do not have that option. I play mainly at church. Cant crank an amp there. Which was my whole reason for switching to FRFR 2 years ago. The Kemper was worth the price of admission just for my studio alone. But I have to find a happy medium for live use and so far Im not there yet. I guess whats puzzling me is how I can get such a huge great sound out of my KRK's which are only 8" speakers, and then have it sound small and lifeless through a 10" RCF. Doesnt make sense to me. Guess Ill keep tweaking and see what I can come up with.

    Jeff: What Level are you sending to the RCF? (you can see it from your master) No need to do any special tweak out of EQ on the monitor out (for the room, not much for the box).


    Consider also that at the same (low?) volume of the KRK the RCF will definitely sound flatter, but it changes when you put some volume on it.

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


    Quote from guitarnet70

    Jeff: What Level are you sending to the RCF? (you can see it from your master) No need to do any special tweak out of EQ on the monitor out (for the room, not much for the box).


    Consider also that at the same (low?) volume of the KRK the RCF will definitely sound flatter, but it changes when you put some volume on it.

    Maybe thats the issue. I dont have a loud stage level at church. Very low actually. Our drummer has an electronic kit so stage volume is pretty quiet. Monitor out (to the RCF) is running at -10 db. Main volume (to front of house) is at -21 db. Its not a whole lot louder than the volume that I use in the studio. Im very familiar with the Fletcher Munson effect, however, there just isnt enough volume for that to really come into play. btw, thanks for responding Davide, I always appreciate your input.

    Jeff I am in a similar situation as you are as I am a church worship leader...(we use V-drums)...I was an Eleven Rack user prior to the Kemper...our floor monitors are Mackie 450s I believe...I am looking at one of those stage shaker devices to make up for the loss of volume...would like a stereo full range monitor so I can enjoy the stereo aspect...anyone know of any such thing?

    Stereo boxes on stage do not really translate well as soon as you move a little bit away from them: not enough separation between to speakers. Better to get 2 separate monitors if you want stereo.

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


    I had a similar experience testing FRFR with the KPA. I was using an RCF 312A (which is a lower model than I think you must be using). I had the chance to crank it over a few days (at home, not with a band) and I decided at that point that FRFR was not working for me @ loud volumes. I directly compared the RCF312A set at noon (which is LOUD) to my Scumback loaded 1x12 powered with a simple little EHX Magnum 44 which can also get LOUD and I liked the traditional cab more... but not even that much lol! To be totally honest, I'm still searching for the best mid to high volume level solution.
    In my testing I find that my Master Outputs end up like this:
    MAIN OUT(S) <XLR - mind you I was only going in MONO to one RCF312A> = ~-4-5dB
    MONITOR OUT = -15dB... I don't know what's up but the monitor output seems loud a crap going to my EHX magnum and traditional cab
    HEADPHONES = -12dB
    Is it possible that your KRK's are cranked and you are using a LOT of volume from those, not enough volume from the KPA MAIN OUTS itself and that is tricking your ear into thinking your patches on the KRK are great when they are not? I feel like the Master/Main out should be pretty somewhere like -5-10dB, but you said -21dB??? What is that like when you plug headphones directly into the KPA?
    Also, if I were to do it all over again (FRFR) which I might I will take the advice I have learned and commit to it by dialing all of my patches directly on the FRFR LOUD. I think this is true, I think if you dial your FRFR loud and get your patches to sound good LOUD when you bring them back down to lower volume levels they will still sound great. The inverse does NOT seem to be true! Anytime I dial on headphones and into lower volume nearfield monitors with small(er) drivers, when I push it harder through larger FRFR it's a disaster.
    Also, are your profiles tweaked heavily? If so, that could be a sign that you are compensating for what you really need because of your monitoring system.
    My take on it is if I have to tweak a profile beyond a certain point for the core tone to start working, I many times bail on that profile and move on to the next. There are a ton to choose from I haven't even heard and it's entirely possible that some profiles don't work for your situation OR weren't created very well.
    IMHO, YMMV.


    EDIT: BTW, I think this is pretty close to the "correct" main output because I have had the Focusrite Saffire (and earlier Scarlett) audio interfaces and they need to be driven pretty heard in their virtual mixer. They also require to have their outs (monitor out, headphone out) to be pushed quite high around 7 or 2 o'clock on the dial to sound correct. I have used all type of modeling gear and analog gear with these audio interfaces so I know the "gain staging" and volume setups quite well. Now obviously, some patches are loud as f*ck and some are way too low. But in general once you balance things and compare to many of the stock profiles I have found that Master / Main Outs (1/4" in my case but I have even tested spdif which are a little lower) usually ends up ~ -4-5dB.

    Edited once, last by NightRunner ().

    Hey Greg, thanks for responding. The main outs -21 db was to the live mixer, not to my audio interface. I use spdif in the studio. My KRK's are nowhere near being cranked. I mix at a very moderate level in my studio. Im still really struggling with getting what I want out of the RCF. Like you, I try a profile, tweak a little if at all, and if it aint happening, I move on. I have not tried your idea of setting a profile with the volume loud on the FRFR and then turning it back down. I will give that a try this week.


    The weird thing is, Im not struggling as much with overdriven tones, its more the cleans. To date I have not found one profile that I can get a really clean fat round sound out of. It sound flat and dull and I feel like Im fighting my guitar. I can get close with my strat, but not a chance with the Wolfgang. Dont get me wrong, Im still struggling a little with overdriven tones, just not as much as with cleans. Ive never had that problem with a modeller before. I can usually always dial in a clean sound in no time at all. Any attempt on the Kemper is lifeless. Before anyone jumps at me, Im quite certain that it is just something I personally have not figured out yet.....not bashing the Kemper at all.


    I approach live sound alot like I do in the studio. I want it to sound good first THEN eq if necessary to enhance the sound, not to change it. Im not a huge tweaker. I rarely mess with deep edit features in the Kemper. I dunno, I assume I will get it figured out, but right now Im not getting along with my live set up and I was pretty disappointed this past Sunday playing live.

    Quote from jeff5x0

    Hey Greg, thanks for responding. The main outs -21 db was to the live mixer, not to my audio interface. I use spdif in the studio. My KRK's are nowhere near being cranked. I mix at a very moderate level in my studio. Im still really struggling with getting what I want out of the RCF. Like you, I try a profile, tweak a little if at all, and if it aint happening, I move on. I have not tried your idea of setting a profile with the volume loud on the FRFR and then turning it back down. I will give that a try this week.


    The weird thing is, Im not struggling as much with overdriven tones, its more the cleans. To date I have not found one profile that I can get a really clean fat round sound out of. It sound flat and dull and I feel like Im fighting my guitar. I can get close with my strat, but not a chance with the Wolfgang. Dont get me wrong, Im still struggling a little with overdriven tones, just not as much as with cleans. Ive never had that problem with a modeller before. I can usually always dial in a clean sound in no time at all. Any attempt on the Kemper is lifeless. Before anyone jumps at me, Im quite certain that it is just something I personally have not figured out yet.....not bashing the Kemper at all.


    I approach live sound alot like I do in the studio. I want it to sound good first THEN eq if necessary to enhance the sound, not to change it. Im not a huge tweaker. I rarely mess with deep edit features in the Kemper. I dunno, I assume I will get it figured out, but right now Im not getting along with my live set up and I was pretty disappointed this past Sunday playing live.




    i was also having a hard time with the clean sounds. i've found that the input clean sense settings do make some difference. feel free to experiment with these on a per patch level... bring in some sag and a little compression, maybe lower the pick and definition/clarity a bit and definitely try the xits cab sim, which is my personal favourite for nearly all my patches... the kingsley profile is a little gem out there, cleans up beautifully. still, a fullrange monitor of any kind will never sound like a sweet alnico 12'' in a decent open back cabinet. period. you'll never get the gentle dispersion in the room which makes a BIG part of that sound. close miking won't help here either. i'm in the studio tomorrow and i might come up with a new clean profile to experiment with...
    btw, i'm using a rather pricey rcf tt 25 sma monitor, which helps a bit. the topend is way more precise but still smooth and relaxed. my genelec studio-monitors sound like crap in comparison. so exactly the other way round ;) big plus: most patches really just get louder when you turn it up. no big surprises when feeding into a (decent) pa...

    Quote from kilihahn

    big plus: most patches really just get louder when you turn it up. no big surprises when feeding into a (decent) pa..

    +1 That's a big plus of the Kemper, first time that I don't need to have separate sets of sounds for studio/live/headphones :thumbup: :thumbup:

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff