Are y'all's SPDif outs relatively low in volume?

    That is, compared to the analog main outs?
    SPDif out works fine now... just pretty low in overall volume.
    I mean you get a healthy signal... just have to turn up the master volume a bit more. But compared to the analog outs, the digital out is super low in volume. Do you have this too?

    Yes, the S/PDIF outputs are low with respect to the analog outs, but that's because the analog outs are relatively loud. Even with the mic trims on my Saffire Pro 40 at min, I can't bring their levels down to match the S/PDIF levels. And if you bring down the Master Volume, the levels of both the analog and S/PDIF get reduced. Arggh!


    -djh

    With my very powerful and powergreedy apogee ad/da 16x, the spdif is louder... Also, the sound is very different. At frist you think the spdif Sounds more clear, and it does sound "better" in solo, but you soon realize that the analog out has more precense and cuts through better in the mix. That plus the fact i need to sync my entire studio to the kemper, as opposed to the big ben master clock, means I will never use spdif again... Ymmv. Perhaps if you have crappy converters you might prefer the digital io... 8)

    WorldStudios - Apogee & Big Bens? We all should have such gear! :D So, I took to measurin'.


    First, there's nothing wrong with the S/PDIF levels. Turn all stomps & FX off, set Master Volume to 0, and:


    S/PDIF In vs. S/PDIF Out: Sent -10dBFS out, got -10.1dBFS back. Presto.
    Instrument In vs. S/PDIF Out: Sent a calibrated -10dbinst signal, got -10.3dBFS back. Presto again.


    But there is a huge difference in levels between the KPA's mic and line outs with respect to the Saffire's mic and line in sensitivity.


    Mic Outs: Send a calibrated -10dbinst signal, get +2.3dB mic level back on the Saffire at full trim (clipping!). I have to set Master Volume on the KPA to -12.3dB on the KPA in order to see a correct -10dB mic level.
    Line Outs: Using TRS cables, using the same calibrated -10dBinst level signal I get a line level of -25.8dB at full trim with Master Volume at 0. Meaning, I have to add 15.8dB of line trim gain in order to see a -10dB level at the line in on the Saffire.


    As far as practical recording goes, the Line Out and S/PDIF levels are decent; it's easy to calibrate my REAMP loop such that I can send out -10dB of instrument level signal and get -10dB back. Not so with the mic outs. Unless the Saffire's mic pres are unusually sensitive, I'd posit that the KPA's mic outputs are running ~12dB hot.


    -djh

    I think we should be glad that they used a good amount of headroom on the SPDIF signal. Many users program a volume boost for some patches. If you combine that with a profile with some serious low end thump you might reach 0db far too soon.


    At least i did not have a single recording with clipping yet :thumbup:

    dhodgson Some day, my son, you will too own such great gear. If you only practice that guitar 6h a day for ten years. ;)


    I hear substantial differences in sound as well on my Atc scm50asl speakers thru a cranesong avocet. :D


    Anyway, your measurements are in accordance with my findings. The line out is a lot lower than the spdif out, meaning that with my converters ( who want a VERY loud signal and send a very loud one as well..) I have to amplify it with a line signal booster, a preamp... I also need to back the outputs by -10 plus trim about -18 to do profiling without clipping. There must be something to be done about this...

    Quote from WorldStudios

    dhodgson Some day, my son, you will too own such great gear. If you only practice that guitar 6h a day for ten years. ;)


    I hear substantial differences in sound as well on my Atc scm50asl speakers thru a cranesong avocet. :D


    Anyway, your measurements are in accordance with my findings. The line out is a lot lower than the spdif out, meaning that with my converters ( who want a VERY loud signal and send a very loud one as well..) I have to amplify it with a line signal booster, a preamp... I also need to back the outputs by -10 plus trim about -18 to do profiling without clipping. There must be something to be done about this...


    Wait a sec, I've been practicing 2 hrs a day for 30 years! :D No, really. It's kinda sad. D'oh! :pinch:


    But these numbers got me thinking; the difference between consumer-level line out -10dBV (.316V RMS) and pro-level line out +4dBU (1.23V RMS) is 11.8 dB. I wonder if there's some "consumer vs. pro" level bit on the output preamp that Kemper is using that's being reversed. Imagine the mic levels being dropped by 11.8dB and the TRS line outs being raised by 11.8dB - that would be pretty ideal.


    Can you describe the difference in sound on your Avocet?


    -djh

    Quote from WorldStudios

    I hear substantial differences in sound as well on my Atc scm50asl speakers thru a cranesong avocet. :D


    This is what I call bragging :D ..... ;( well I assume this is what happen when real pro studios hit this forum.

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


    Guys. I admit to bragging about my gear. It took me twenty years of hard work in the studio and a sudden unexpected royalty check to finally be able to afford the speakers I had always pined for. The Avocet is overkill, perhaps, but it is very clean and mighty flexible, so I am happy I got it :). The point was, however, that I have top gear and perhaps you need very good gear to tell the difference between the outputs. The difference is there and the analog outs sound a bit more pushed in the high mid/low treble. More "pointy". The spdif is fuller sounding. In a mix, the analog outs cut through better, so I will only ever use those. Also, the sync issue, having to sync a whole studio from the Kemper, feels uncomfortable. If you don't, you get clicks galore... But, something it not right with the analog levels for my setup. I guess a -10/+4 dB switch is called for, but I will look into this.


    Rock on!

    Just received this bug tracking report from Kemper today; passing along reproducible steps is everything, and they got it.


    Quote

    We have figured out, that an internal software switch is adjusted to its maximum, which is unintended and causing a bigger level difference between XLR and TRS Master Volume.


    We have been considering how we could close this gap. We don't want to make this software switch available in the user interface, because we want to avoid any complexities, which aren't adding value to the majority of users and just making the device more complicated introducing opportunity for failure. Reducing the level for anybody in one step, might introduce bigger issues to multiple customers. You have been the only customer detecting this.
    I tested the KPA again connected to my Allen & Heath wizard mixing console - you might say this is semi professional - however I have no problem to adapt levels appropriately.


    Therefore we are considering to adjust levels over time across multiple firmware version and close the gap step by step.


    I replied that I'd rather this bug just got fixed all at once; I don't think Kemper would be doing us any favors by incrementally bringing the levels into compliance, as that means having to tweak our settings with each software rev!


    What say you?


    -djh


    P.S. WorldStudios, please turn on your private messages.

    As we clearly have some people here who know far more than i'm ever going to, if i'm taking an out put from my kemper into my apogee duet2 for recording in my mac and feeding to my powered monitor speakers, :whistling: what are the best outputs to use, and should it be xlr or jack socket?