Headphone tone good for FOH?

  • Hello everyone,


    My name is Jesse Luciani, I'm a new Kemper owner (powerhead) and I've got a question with regards to setting my tone.


    I have been running the Speaker Out to a Hughes & Kettner CC412A 4X12 (with the Cab Off on the Kemper). I have to say that it sounds killer, and very much feels like a regular guitar amp, however, I know I'm missing out on half of what this thing has to offer though.


    I have a gig coming up where I won't be in charge of the FOH sound, and low stage volumes are encouraged, and they will supply me with a monitor (no idea what kind). I know that leaves a lot in the hands of the sound guy...so now to my actual question. I don't want to use the H&K cab for this gig, and I am under the impression that I should set my tone on a transparent speaker (which the H&K is obviously not). Would it be safe to say that if I get a good tone through a pair of studio headphones plugged into the Headphone input (KRK KNS 8400 http://www.krksys.com/Headphones/KNS-8400), that I am sending the sound guy something decent through the Main out? or is there some glaring issue that I'm missing here? I plan to use the Cab ON for this incase that isn't clear.


    Thanks for the help! I've been lurking this forum for about a month now reading up about cabs and tricks for the Kemper, I hope to be able to help out new users in the future!

  • I might not understand, what your concern is. While the Speaker Output - with Monitor Cab. Off - is prepared to drive a guitar speaker cabinet, the Main Outputs are the first choice to feed FOH. Monitor Cab..Off is only applied to the Monitor output, which is also feeding the internal power amp. So, the signal of the Main Outputs includes the guitar speaker simulation by default. The Main Outputs are stereo and with their default source setting "Master Stereo" include all the effects. So, it should be all set. While the Headphone Output delivers the same signal (Master Stereo) headphones have their limitations to evaluate your FOH sound. I would use good studio monitors for that purpose.

  • Hello,


    Thanks for the reply! Hopefully I can clear up what I'm asking. Basically I'm looking for a way to evaluate my tone at home, so that I'm not adjusting the sound too much to compensate for my speakers (which aren't the best for this). I had a pair of studio headphones already and was wondering if those would be a good way of doing so.


    Thanks!


    Jesse

  • I understand the question of @JesseLuciani because it is also I concern that I have. Not all of us have access to good studio monitors to evaluate our FOH sound. So it would be nice to have some info about the possible options in headphones that are at least good enough.


    In my case I don´t need/want a 100% accurate reproduction because I don´t believe it´s that important as long as the tone is good. And anyways the front desk guy will always have the power to make or brake your sound...

  • You have to keep Fletcher-Munson curves in mind. It is just not possible to hear through headphones what you'll hear through the PA because of the different volumes. Killer tones at home sound way to fizzy with to much treble at stage volume. You can, however, try to compensate that as far as possible with different output EQs but therefore you need to know how your Kemper sounds in the rehearsal room at stage volume and how it sounds at home. I would start with setting up a fine tone at stage volume, take that home and fiddle with the output EQ until it comes close. From then on you can reverse the process and start at home. But this isn't an exact science, you can just narrow that kind of stuff.


    The other way around: The more you crank your headphones (if they are good and mostly flat, i. e. 880 Pros or something like that) the more they may sound like your rig at stage volume.
    But: I needed quite a long time and more than one try to find the right EQ settings paired with the right headphones (I tried many!) to be able to set up at home and have a clue what it may sound like when played loud.

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    Main Rig: KPA Power Toaster + Profiler Remote, 2x Palmer 112 Cab (1x Celestion V30, 1x Celestion CB NEO), ME EP1-KP-GN, Dunlop Cry Baby 95Q, Gibson Memphis ES-339 '16, Gibson Melody Maker '14, Fender Thinline Cabronita '12

    Edited once, last by 10w73 ().

  • I think you can also easily over think these things.
    I set up my choices by listening in my studio monitors at home and it translated to the PA (and in ear monitors) just fine.


    But as a start, I’d suggest that if you were happy with the sounds through your cab you could just sent those sounds via the main outputs to FOH and let the mixer adjust as needed.
    Odds are it’s going to be just fine.


    And unless you’re playing bigger venues with serious well designed and tuned PA’s, you’re only chasing a moving target anyway. The PA in one small club often sounds absolutely nothing like the PA in the one down the street (leaving aside whether they’re well maintained).

  • But as a start, I’d suggest that if you were happy with the sounds through your cab you could just sent those sounds via the main outputs to FOH and let the mixer adjust as needed.
    Odds are it’s going to be just fine.

    Either I got you wrong or you are wrong here. If it sounds killer through his cab this has absolutely nothing to do with the sounds FOH gets. Since with his cab there is no cab sim. The cab/ cab sim influences most of the sound and hence what FOH gets will be absolutely different from what he gets through his cab.

    The Educated Apes: Facebook | Bandcamp


    Kemper-Wiki
    [email protected]


    Main Rig: KPA Power Toaster + Profiler Remote, 2x Palmer 112 Cab (1x Celestion V30, 1x Celestion CB NEO), ME EP1-KP-GN, Dunlop Cry Baby 95Q, Gibson Memphis ES-339 '16, Gibson Melody Maker '14, Fender Thinline Cabronita '12

  • Probably @10w73 there is some middle ground between the over thinking and the "just fine" approach.


    Right now my idea, because I use a Powered KPA is to use a good IR of my real cab so I can trust the sounds to sound quite similar.


    In my case I don´t want them to sound exactly as the real amp that was profiled, but rather my own version of it. And that includes my own personal cabinet (by the way, just a typical Marshall cabinet with V30s on it. But a it´s red one that looks great).


    Let me know if you think this approach should work for me and if some one can suggest a good IR of the V30 Marshall cabinet it would be great.


  • Either I got you wrong or you are wrong here. If it sounds killer through his cab this has absolutely nothing to do with the sounds FOH gets. Since with his cab there is no cab sim. The cab/ cab sim influences most of the sound and hence what FOH gets will be absolutely different from what he gets through his cab.

    I didn't say they'd be "the same"


    I said: odds are they'll be fine.


    and I still think that

  • Look, I wouldn't have said what I've said if I heaven't made experience. Would make no sense. It is a tremendous difference hearing something through headphones and or at home levels or really, really loud. But what can become an even greater problem is underestimating the cab's part. Of course out there are "good" IRs etc. - but what they make out of the amp also depends on the amp. A good IR will sound bad in a rig if the amp was profiled with way to much low end or way to much treble or with scooped mids or whatever. How will you know if an IR is good in correspondence with a profiled amp without hearing it so to speak.


    I'd suggest that you think less of your actual cab on stage and focus on finding an IR that seems to support your profiled amp very good. See, it is not about getting a good IR of a cab you know. That is not how this works. It also depends on the mic or even the mics used, on the mic(s) position and the room itself as well as the preamps, the board, the EQs that maybe added in the process and so on.
    So, crank up those earphones until it hurts (or a little less :D ) and if it sounds killer you may as well sound killer on stage with maybe a little output EQing and help from the FOH guy. And next time try to set your tone at stage volume.


    Have fun, mate! :thumbup:

    The Educated Apes: Facebook | Bandcamp


    Kemper-Wiki
    [email protected]


    Main Rig: KPA Power Toaster + Profiler Remote, 2x Palmer 112 Cab (1x Celestion V30, 1x Celestion CB NEO), ME EP1-KP-GN, Dunlop Cry Baby 95Q, Gibson Memphis ES-339 '16, Gibson Melody Maker '14, Fender Thinline Cabronita '12

  • Right now I´m just going to use what the general consensum thinks sounds good at stage volumes. And that is MBritt profiles.


    Of course it is true that with my headphones at regular volime his profiles sound way too bassy. And it improves if I increase the volume to the point of getting tinitus for some minutes after I stop playing. Of course I don´t do that all the time.


    Playing with my cab the sound is different, of course, but still very good if I crank the volume.



    I have not stepped on a stage since more than 10 years ago. And back then I just used my red JCM 800 miked and a bunch of pedals. But I got a bit tired of the same basic sound. That was the main reason to buy a kemper. Try other "amps" without having to really buy them.



    What I mean by that is that probably in a couple of years using the kemper live I will have my own opinion/method, but now is just guessing or using other people´s opinions.


    Anyway... at least I have a couple of months before I have to really worry about that because we are not going to play live soon.

  • . I'd suggest that you think less of your actual cab on stage and ...



    ...So, crank up those earphones until it hurts (or a little less :D ) and if it sounds killer you may as well sound killer on stage with maybe a little output EQing and help from the FOH guy. And next time try to set your tone at stage volume.

    I would agree with that.


    I’m using profiles (I made myself) that are made by mic’ing my amps the way I like to do it and therefore include the cab sound without a way to turn it off
    But I send that both to FOH and monitors AND to my onstage cab.
    Yes it sounds ‘different’ into the cab but it’s not objectionable and I know that FOH gets the sound I want.


    Almost every PA (and ESPECIALLY in smaller clubs) is going to be bassier than headphones or even studio monitors. It may also be toppier, but often not.

  • Right now I´m just going to use what the general consensum thinks sounds good at stage volumes. And that is MBritt profiles.


    Of course it is true that with my headphones at regular volime his profiles sound way too bassy. And it improves if I increase the volume to the point of getting tinitus for some minutes after I stop playing. Of course I don´t do that all the time.


    Playing with my cab the sound is different, of course, but still very good if I crank the volume.

    I find myself tending to use my own profiles or MBritt most of the time too. But surely you should be experiencing the opposite regarding bass and volume.


    Equal loudness curves (Fletcher-Munsen etc) show that our ears are more sensitive to mid range than high and low frequencies. Therefore, when listening at low volume we need to increase bass and treble to compensate (its one of the reasons so many bedroom metal players use an extreme V shaped graphic eq). However, as we turn up the volume that bass and treble should become over powering relative to the mids. Therefore, in theory the MBritt profiles should sound a bit muddy in the mids until the volume is turned up to stage levels if I understand the theory correctly. Having said that I firmly believe that practical first hand observation trumps theory and I haven't really found any major issues with hi profiles at any level so far - time will tell as I start using it more in a live context.

  • I find myself tending to use my own profiles or MBritt most of the time too. But surely you should be experiencing the opposite regarding bass and volume.
    Equal loudness curves (Fletcher-Munsen etc) show that our ears are more sensitive to mid range than high and low frequencies. Therefore, when listening at low volume we need to increase bass and treble to compensate (its one of the reasons so many bedroom metal players use an extreme V shaped graphic eq). However, as we turn up the volume that bass and treble should become over powering relative to the mids. Therefore, in theory the MBritt profiles should sound a bit muddy in the mids until the volume is turned up to stage levels if I understand the theory correctly. Having said that I firmly believe that practical first hand observation trumps theory and I haven't really found any major issues with hi profiles at any level so far - time will tell as I start using it more in a live context.


    I just follow the observations of other forumites or even MBritt himself (I don´t remember now) about pulling back the Bass knob at about 9 (-3) for low volume playing as a general rule of thumb. Maybe I missunderstood something, but I have tried it and it really works.

  • actually, Fletcher-Munson would make a profile potentially sound Mid heavy, and lacking in top and bottom, at low listening levels.


    something that sounds muddy at low listening level is going to appear to have MORE bottom (as well as more top) at high levels


    I set my sounds by listening, pretty loudly, on studio monitors, and then I still expect that a real-life PA will be boomier than that.

  • When I first started trying to incorporate my Kemper for live shows it was a few weeks of trial and error. I would tweak to monitors and then listen on headphones and have to totally redo all eq tweaks, then I would listen to my iems and have to undo all of those tweaks then I would play though a small pa speaker I would change it again. I finally gave up and rented a room at a local rehearsal studio and played through my Kemper from the mix position and listened to the pa. I found that I just turned off all the eq blocks and picked the rigs I liked.


    I know not everyone has access to a flown line array for a few hours but what I did find is that my iems translate the best to what sounded good in the pa. I know not everyone can afford ultimate ears ue7’s but you just need to do some trial and error for a few weeks and then you should be good to go. Most headphones tend to overhype low end but if you eq it out of your rigs you will miss it once you go to a pa. If they sound a little midrange heavy and body then they’ll have more body and fullness in a pa typically. If they are crispy in headphones then you’ll most likely be neutering some listeners when turned up loud. If you can just bear with a couple weeks of transition to find what works on the systems you’re on you’ll come out just fine. I don’t use any eq blocks or drastic eq cuts or boosts anywhere. Most of my eq knobs stay around the noon position or maybe 1-2 leds above noon. It’s easy to overdo things and create more problems so find rigs you like and then make minor tweaks at first.

  • Thanks for the help everyone!


    I just got home from rehearsal, and wow...just wow. This was my first time hearing it LOUD (with a Heavy hitting drummer), and I can't believe how good my sound was. I went mono into the board, and the tone was just awesome. It actually wasn't far from the headphones. I used a Top Jimi Petrucci Profile that I tweaked, my Vox AC30 profile, and an Mbritt that I can't remember the name of at the moment (I will edit this post to add the profile name). I have been reading the forums, and watching the Tone Junkie videos to get a handle on how to tweak sounds if necessary. I was using an EBMM JP-6 for the guitar.


    I have a question that might not be thread worthy, maybe someone can help me sort this out. If I'm using a line cable, should I go into a DI box? Or just direct into the board? Does it matter? What does the DI change/do for the sound? Should I avoid the DI box if I'm using XLR?


    Thank you again for all the help. To anyone that is having the issue/concern that I was, learn how to tweak the profiles, don't just automatically move to a new one, that way you can understand the different tools that the Kemper offers to adjust the sound.

  • I have a question that might not be thread worthy, maybe someone can help me sort this out. If I'm using a line cable, should I go into a DI box? Or just direct into the board? Does it matter? What does the DI change/do for the sound? Should I avoid the DI box if I'm using XLR?

    Using a line cable you are free to consider using a DI-box while I think it won't be necessary. DI-boxes are able to "convert" unsymmetrical connections to symmetrical ones. It's a way of getting rid of unwanted interferences/ noises in the signal. If you don't find something that interferes with your signal there will be most likely no use for a DI-box. The levels are already line levels so there is no need to use a DI-box for that. Try finding some wiki page (i. e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DI_unit) or something if you want to dive deeper into it. When you use the symmetrical outputs on the Kemper (XLR) there is absolutely no need for using another DI-box to my mind.

    The Educated Apes: Facebook | Bandcamp


    Kemper-Wiki
    [email protected]


    Main Rig: KPA Power Toaster + Profiler Remote, 2x Palmer 112 Cab (1x Celestion V30, 1x Celestion CB NEO), ME EP1-KP-GN, Dunlop Cry Baby 95Q, Gibson Memphis ES-339 '16, Gibson Melody Maker '14, Fender Thinline Cabronita '12

  • Giving an update just in case anyone was curious of the outcome. I went main out mono with an XLR to the board, and it sounded killer. Best stage sound I think I've ever had. Thanks to the forum for all the help!