Double tracking vs quad vs more? Is it only for sloppy players?

  • You can try varied EQs on the tracks (or on the kemper itself) to create a fuller sound. This is the approach the foo fighters use for a bigger fuller sound.


    3 tracks, treble on the right, rounder on the left, varying levels of overdrive, and different guitars.


    Oh yeah, as someone else mentioned you will need to pan your tracks! 60% L/R down to 20% L/R anywhere in between is up to you.


    On Quad tracks you'd do 2 tracks, one 60% left + one 60% right (again, up to you) and two more ( 30% L and 30% R)


    On Double tracks anywhere between 15-30% is good in my opinion, at 30% and higher it starts to sound weird IMO, but 30%+ works wonders on acoustic guitar.

    Edited once, last by 0K1900 ().

  • A lot of that is both difference of tone, but also the arrangement (ie. playing/singing in different registers, counter melodies etc etc)


    Exactly, I think my 12x tracking clip proved that if you're quad tracking with the same tone, you're just wasting time.


    Switching up different guitar tones tho of course that will make an audiable difference... But with low gain it will probably still sound weak tho 8)




    I have struggled getting tones that sounds good for years because of the stupid "lower your gain!" way of thinking.


    Until just yesterday or so when I started cranking the gain then suddenly "oh, this is were the awesome tones comes from"


    Suddenly it sounds just as full as many guitar tones I've liekd for years but since I've lowered the gain I've simply crippled the power


    My clips in the OP proves it...




    double track for rock, quad track for metal. The player must be solid and play it the same every time for it to sound good. the small amounts of timing and intonation is what makes it sound big


    This is exactly why one "shouldn't" just "copy" a track, pan it and move it a few ms... or even 20-30ms... It will STILL have interferance in the middle, and not be a real stereo sound.


    Why I put "shouldn't" in quotations is because nothing is wrong when making music. It's just... if you want wide, record two takes. It's not an impossible task 8)

  • double track for rock, quad track for metal. The player must be solid and play it the same every time for it to sound good. the small amounts of timing and intonation is what makes it sound big

    I dont get why that would be the "norm"!
    I dont think any of the METAL bands I listen two quad tracks.


    AND... In these examples they all have LOTS OF GAIN. Not weak "low gain" settings!


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  • Lower gain just means don't max your gain dial, it doesn't mean set your gain at 2.


    The reason you'd use lower gain than max is because max will crush and compress your signal reducing it's dynamic range (depends on amp, tubes and cabinet) but gain will always compress your signal.


    Of course for metal you'll always be in high gain territory, but it means reducing your gain from a 9 to an 8 or even 7.5 for rhythm.

  • I dont get why that would be the "norm"!I dont think any of the METAL bands I listen two quad tracks.


    AND... In these examples they all have LOTS OF GAIN. Not weak "low gain" settings!


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    He should have said "modern" metal. Grave Digger and Running Wild are old bands, and even their newer releases still sound like just a plain ol' double-track to me. The self-titled Grave Digger album is also double-tracked, I'm pretty sure, and sounds INSANELY heavy compared to those two.


    To be fair, though, having a giant bass in the middle makes a big difference - half of what makes you think "wow, these guitars are gigantic" on that Grave Digger track is actually Jens Becker (formerly of Running Wild, coincidentally). Iced Earth is a great example for this as well - Steve DiGiorgio played on Horror Show and that album sounds way beefier than anything else they've done.

  • Yeah that is why I dont like the generalization that "metal is quad tracked" :D


    It depends. I dont oppose the idea quad tracking but rather the idea that metal SHOULD be.


    And of course maybe my "12x the same tone" example is a bit silly, but it still shows that not matter how many low gain tracks you stack upon each other, the percieved gain will still be exactly the same no matter how many (tightly played) layers you have.


    Yeah I'm well aware of these bands lineups and I love Jens Beckers bass tone :love:


    But if you listen to the Grave Digger track even when the bass is not playing during the intro it's still HUUUUGE.


    About the Running Wild tone I didn't say it was huge, I can hear it's thin as paper, but it's hiiiiiigh gain. That was why I linked it :thumbup:

  • Well here is some thing more to think about, i have noticed blending 2 amps in 2 stereo cabs makes it fatter and one can be low gain and the other what ever...Metallica use 2 AXE effects live, James has a Diezel amp emulation , the other a Mesa boogie...panned each side = ONE SOUND


    I run one amp one side and one amp the other...its fatter than quad tracks IMHO.
    Also the tone comes out unique, one fills in the others freq blah blah..
    Ced has 2 kempers he could try this....


    To me the running wild rig was fatter..BUT..if it was me i would run the running wild rig one side and the grqave digger the other..
    Stereo cabs make a huge difference too. All as i am saying is try the 2 different amps panned each side also.


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

  • Yeah, agreed, Ash. That's what some of us are saying - having different tones for all the sources, no matter how many tracks you stack up, will always provide a beefier result.


    FWIW, this is exactly what the Stereo Widener effect in the Profiler does.

    Awesome to know; thank you, Don! Way to go Kemper for employing this zero-loss / zero-phase-cancellation approach, thus allowing stereo-widened, Kemperfied tracks to play on mono systems without sounding shite.


    But if you listen to the Grave Digger track even when the bass is not playing during the intro it's still HUUUUGE.

    Bear in mind that the guitar parts' low-end EQ would've been allowed to pass through at least a little more whilst the bass isn't playing, Ceddy. Typical mixing trick I've mentioned before here. You can automate the high-pass cutoff to lower to taste as an easy means of accomplishing this if you want to try it in your songs.

  • Look at this video, these guys have one of the heaviest tones I know of.


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    Over a dozen layers of guitar being mixed, so it runs completely counter to @Cederick's initial argument.


    If you watch the video, you'll hear that some of the tracks are lower gain, and some are higher gain.


    Personally, I like to quad track with different tunings, definitely sounds heavier for detuned guitars. But when I finish tracking for the album, I'll have six or eight guitar DI tracks for each song, then blend to taste.

  • I dont get why that would be the "norm"!I dont think any of the METAL bands I listen two quad tracks.


    AND... In these examples they all have LOTS OF GAIN. Not weak "low gain" settings!


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    I never mention normal and thats what everyone one does all the time, i was just stating thats what i do!!

  • Over a dozen layers of guitar being mixed, so it runs completely counter to @Cederick's initial argument.

    No it doesn't, AJ. He used exactly the same tone and gain for each track, so if anything, both what he did and you say prove what we've been saying - that tonal variation between tracks is a must if we want to make parts sound larger through layering.


    If you watch the video, you'll hear that some of the tracks are lower gain, and some are higher gain.

    Exactly.

  • Ok, I've tried 12x tracking with DIFFERENT TONES (completely different Kemper profiles of different amps)...
    ...and I'm STILL right.


    Even with 12x different low gain profiles, it still sounds WEAK.


    The 12x high gain isn't even overly muddy either...


    So conclusion is:
    1. Record the same tone with "X amount of gain" profile 12x over and it will sound THE SAME
    2. Record different tones with "X amount of gain" profiles 12x over, and it will sound differently EQ-wise, but the gain stage will sound the same no matter how many layers you stack.



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  • I think I see the issue. From the screenshots, and listening to the examples, I think @Cederick is reamping a single pair six times each. If so, that's NOT what we're talking about - you should be physically playing the riff twelve times. If you are... well, you're playing way too tight. "Big" metal doesn't need tech-death precision.


    And yes, multitracking is the standard for *most* metal, has been since the '80s. Master of Puppets was six, for instance. Sad But True is five, I believe, the one in the center played with a really growly baritone or something (you can see it in the Year And A Half video).


    Easy experiment: Record the same riff with two different guitars, through two different profiles, like so:
    Guit A -> Profile A
    Guit A -> Profile B
    Guit B -> Profile B
    Guit B -> Profile A


    Use reasonably different sounds. A Gibson and a shreddy Ibanez, for instance, or a Marshall + Greenback and a Mesa + V30.


    Now tell me that double-tracking still sounds just as big.

  • Just sayin'. This would add to the argument that to mix a higher-gain take in with the lower-gain ones might be a better way to go.

    This is a really fun idea. I like two tracks of super-tight Jon Schaffer (gee, have I mentioned Iced Earth yet in this thread? :P) and then two tracks of something huge, saturated, and chorusey like "Bark At The Moon" in the background.