better transpose

  • Just curious if anyone has ever played either a pedal or any guitar product with a transpose feature that does so with less delay or more naturally than what the Kemper does. I haven't, and find the options to affect the response more accommodating than other devices I've used. I'm thinking I could do this feature in my old TC elec G-system and Line 6 pod, however, every device than can transpose that I've ever used, including the two I mentioned had similar delay issues. Any device that does any pitch shifting, even just blending a second voice to the original, always seems to have an inherent delay on the shifted voice, including my Eventide H9. I'm wondering if it's just the nature of the beast? Or, if a significant improvement would require way too much processing power beyond what any multi-effect unit would be able to dedicate? It would be cool, if such a transpose feature could track virtually instantaneous, I've just never experienced it myself. But given that a full 100% transpose is a feature that I've at most played around with a few times because of the same inherent limitations, I'm curious if there are products out there that actually do this noticeably better?

    I have never personally played with any other product with a transpose feature and i don't think id ever bother investing in one at this point either as the KPA does what i want in that regard (and obviously everything else!)


    Regarding your question about processing power from a device trying to transpose, I would think that it would be possible to get the latency down but its trying to make it at a price point that isn't going to break the bank and the device also needs to be in a usable form factor (i.e pedal).


    With systems like Variax, you have the benefit of the individual piezo saddle pickups which takes one of the processes away from the CPU (splitting the signal up) and the chip on the guitar itself is doing part of the work too!


    I really want a Variax guys! :(

  • With the high gain sounds I have for rhythm I notice a change in the sound at somewhere between 350-400hz. It may just be the individual profile, but it needs attenuation on an eq.


    Any improvement that comes down the line will be welcome, but these minor issues will not stop me using it. I would be carrying 4 guitars instead of 2 without it.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • Yeah i recently put a slightly heavier set of strings on my main guitar and they seem to handle standard tuning and can go down to D standard or drop C without any issue so i don't need to go down using transpose as much.

    But changing from E standard to D standard and Drop C you will have problem with the intonation and probably need to adjust the neck. Heavier string gauge makes it easier and keeps the guitar in better tune and you can have lower action.

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

  • The Transpose parameter in the Rig section comes first in the chain.

    first in the RIG "chain" or first in the ENTIRE signal chain??


    call me crazy, but it seemed to me (and reinforced by the panel layout) that "stomp boxes" would be inserted before the "amp" stack etc.

  • first in the RIG "chain" or first in the ENTIRE signal chain??
    call me crazy, but it seemed to me (and reinforced by the panel layout) that "stomp boxes" would be inserted before the "amp" stack etc.

    The legending on the front panel doesn’t actually reflect the real-life signal flow 1 to 1. For example, the Cab section is actually after X and Mod.
    The Rig settings don’t reflect any specific section, either. Yes, I am pretty darned sure that the Transpose option in the Rig settings comes before Stomps, Stack or FX sections :)

  • I'm not sure if Kemper has their own definition for "rig", but my rig is everything from my board to guitar. Obviously the kemper has no built in guitar (yet, haha) but I always just assumed "rig" included the stomps. I mean, the stomps are right there in page 5 of the Rig section.

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

  • I've tried a few transpose pedals and found latency with them all. I think the Kemper is on a par with those BUT if it could be improved that would be even better. I'd love to get rid of having to take different tuned guitars.


    I'd also like to option to transpose a whole performance - instead of having to change each rig, but thats nit picking...

  • With regards to the individual string tuning, i think it would be possible but the problem faced is you only have one signal going in to the unit so it would have to identify each string and the change them individually that way, this would take a substantial amount of processing power and would just lead to a delay in your playing like you hear with transpose.

    Correct weight, Munkeh. This is what Melodyne does, and it takes a helluva lot of CPU cycles (i.e. time) to achieve, meaning that even if the Kemper had sufficient grunt to spare, it wouldn't be possible or practical in the foreseeable future IMHO.


    I do however run my KPA through a Line 6 FH1500 and the other guitarist bought his Variax to a rehearsal to use the acoustic on it, and that sounded great when you used the in built de-tuning. Obviously it has the advantage of having piezo saddles on the bridge so it makes it easier for the FH1500 to do its job but it works really well!

    Indeed it does mate. The Variax "tuning" has the advantage of individual-string input, and then to top it off it literally replaces the waveform with the selected guitar model. It's a proprietary "secret", but I've always assumed it uses some sort of dynamic convolution. Either way, replacing the waveform obviously has advantages over having to retune an existing one, not least of which is not having to deal with formant preservation (chipmunks be gone).


    With systems like Variax, you have the benefit of the individual piezo saddle pickups which takes one of the processes away from the CPU (splitting the signal up) and the chip on the guitar itself is doing part of the work too!


    I really want a Variax guys!

    Yup. Taking the Melodyne-style polyphonic analysis out of the equation is where it's at.


    I don't think you'll be disappointed with the V'ax as long as you accept that the models employed are "specific" guitars. All LP's and Strats sound different for example, as you'd know, so the sounds you end up with depend entirely on which specific guitars they "captured". They're not "generic", "ballpark" approximations as many might have assumed. That sort of thing arises from ground-up DSP modelling, which isn't what the V'ax does.


    I'm not sure if Kemper has their own definition for "rig", but my rig is everything from my board to guitar. Obviously the kemper has no built in guitar (yet, haha) but I always just assumed "rig" included the stomps. I mean, the stomps are right there in page 5 of the Rig section.

    Yup. The Rig contains everything except the global and system settings.

  • I'm a constant user of Custom Scales in the Transpose effect.


    CK has done a marvelous job HOWEVER, I wish for 2 very important/urgent things.


    1) GUI - CK please change the harmony notes to their actual musical note names instead of steps. It would make programming a breeze, at the moment it's a MUCH slower & cumbersome process. Everyone would benefit immediately from this simple GUI change.

    I am not sure if that everyone would be pleased by changing the user scales from a relative to an absolute representation.
    That would also mean, that the naming of the steps would be dependend of the actual key and thus change whenever the key is changes.
    At least I would not like it as I think in intervals rather than in absolute pitches.

  • Yeah. I called Kemper. For a transpose feature this is the best you can get at the moment. There is also an option under soft knob one that my change the sound for the better.
    The tried to transpose individual strings, but it wasn’t possible.

    A contemporary realtime polyphonic pitch shifter cannot avoid latency, cannot prevent shifting of the formants and preserve a natural sound, and cannot shift individual strings differently.
    That is physics, unfortunately.
    We haven‘t even tried to transpose individual strings.


    For a maximum natural sound, it is recommended to place a pitch shifter before any distortion and cabinet.


  • 2) I know the transpose effect is made up of delays etc but there is still a need to make it track far faster and hopefully more natural sounding as the glitch is still unpleasant. I appreciate some people are requesting it to transpose 4 - 5 semitones perfectly which is an enormous ask. I'm requesting faster tracking and more natural sounding harmony notes when using the custom scales programming/capability.

    For authentic harmony notes (monophonic) we feature the formant freeze / formant correction. It produces absolutely authentic pitched copies of your single notes. In my knowledge the Profiler is the only device in the entire guitar world featuring formant correction (!).


    Am I right in assuming that neither you nor anyone else on this thread uses the formant correction?


    CK

  • Am I right in assuming that neither you nor anyone else on this thread uses the formant correction?


    CK


    i´m new to the Kemper but i was blown away by the pitch shifter, sounds better than anything i heard before,
    and yes, i use the formant correction :)


    in general, i was surprised by the quality of the effects, i like them more than many pedals i own ( like strymon timeline, moebius etc.)


    CB

  • For authentic harmony notes (monophonic) we feature the formant freeze / formant correction. It produces absolutely authentic pitched copies of your single notes. In my knowledge the Profiler is the only device in the entire guitar world featuring formant correction (!).
    Am I right in assuming that neither you nor anyone else on this thread uses the formant correction?


    CK

    Morning CK - The Eventide H8000 has formant correction also. This is especially helpful with the vocal harmony effect on the Eventide.

  • I am not sure if that everyone would be pleased by changing the user scales from a relative to an absolute representation.That would also mean, that the naming of the steps would be dependend of the actual key and thus change whenever the key is changes.
    At least I would not like it as I think in intervals rather than in absolute pitches.

    I can appreciate your position however, as a musician I and many others think musical notes and not intervals initially. Intervals represent a mathematical communication to musicians and not a musical note staff representation.


    I can see your point regarding key changes but anyone who knows their scale notes per key would be perfectly fine with the change.


    I believe many people who don't know formal music theory/notation would still far better relate to actual notes to create custom scale harmonies than intervals.


    I completely feel uncomfortable citing/mentioning the Eventide product to you however, Eventide display notes and they do so for a musical reason.


    I have respect for your product and implementations but in this instance please don't be different just for the sake of it.


    This is a BIG ask and I feel awkward requesting it but can you offer the 2 GUIs in a release and the user selects which one they want to use?