Tone seems to include DI signal mixed in

  • Hey everyone! I need a sanity check - I noticed today that my profiler seems to be mixing in a portion of the clean DI signal regardless of what patch I use. However, it's totally a possibility that I'm just overanalyzing the sound, and that it sounds exactly as it should. I am attaching 3 short samples. One is the dry DI recorded via SPDIF, and the other two are the profiles. One of them is a custom profile that I use, and the other is the untouched LL Nineties Finest rig that comes with the Kemper. In both cases, I can hear what sounds like the DI whenever longish chords are played.


    All samples recorded / reamped via SPDIF, but I have also tested going direct in with no SPDIF connected and get the same results. I've checked and rechecked my interface settings to make sure there's not an extra input or loop causing it, and I've tried changing any parameter I can on the kemper itself (the DI mix level is definitely 0 for both). I'd really appreciate a second set of ears, or if your willing, use the DI track with your factory LL 90's patch and see if there's any difference. Please excuse the random and terrible playing :) - I just wanted to paint the whole picture! Played on a C7 w/BN Juggernaut pickups in A standard.


    WARNING: They are loud @ -1dB peak and -9dB LUFS so you may wanna turn down your speakers first :)


    Custom Recto patch:

    Moderator Notice:

    In most cases, Soundcloud uses a bandwidth of only 128 kbps. As a result, what you hear isn't free of artefacts, especially the high end. For critical listening and also product comparison, please keep that in mind. Users who setup a comparison should use linear wave files and supply dropbox links.


    LL Nineties Finest (factory default)

    Moderator Notice:

    In most cases, Soundcloud uses a bandwidth of only 128 kbps. As a result, what you hear isn't free of artefacts, especially the high end. For critical listening and also product comparison, please keep that in mind. Users who setup a comparison should use linear wave files and supply dropbox links.


    Download DI:
    https://drive.google.com/open?…Il4BjhJ-dxMqzPvrsgMFS8-7x

  • Wow...that sounds really weird to me.


    This is what "LL - 90s Finest" sounds like on my end:



    Moderator Notice:

    In most cases, Soundcloud uses a bandwidth of only 128 kbps. As a result, what you hear isn't free of artefacts, especially the high end. For critical listening and also product comparison, please keep that in mind. Users who setup a comparison should use linear wave files and supply dropbox links.


    Edit: I definitely hear what you hear on the first profile. Lots and lots of fizz. The LL track isn't as bad, but is still off to me. What guitar/pickups are you using?


    Edit: Just saw the DI. I'm still new at re-amping, but I'll stick it in and see what comes out. :D


    Edit 2: I just listened to your 90s Finest clip a few times...and I think it's OK...depending on what you want out of it...but i can't really hear a lot of "DI bleed", as you describe it. It is a little fizzy for me, but that can be explained other ways...

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

    Edited once, last by Locrain ().

  • Whoa! To be fair, stereo adds a LOT to the sound, and it seems my pickups (or playing style) puts out a lot of low end that muddy my sample up a bit in comparison. BUT listening carefully to your track I can pick out similar sounding DI undertones, so I may be just driving myself a little crazy. I've never noticed them before today, but they are there in every rig I try. Thanks for posting that!

  • Yes, to be fair, I am panning hard L+R...but it's not that different mono, I can show you...


    Edit right hurr:

    Moderator Notice:

    In most cases, Soundcloud uses a bandwidth of only 128 kbps. As a result, what you hear isn't free of artefacts, especially the high end. For critical listening and also product comparison, please keep that in mind. Users who setup a comparison should use linear wave files and supply dropbox links.

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

  • I'm on studio monitors, so what comes across as normal to me could easily be bit fizzy. I'm using a schecter c7 hellraiser with bareknuckle juggernauts!


    Edit: yes! That's much closer to the same sound to me, at least as far as chords go

  • Yeah man, if you hear it in mine, either it's just in your head, or that KPA isn't for you. I think you're overthinking it. I know what that's like. Just relax, and let the winding river of the KPA take you away...


    :D

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

  • Appreciate your input - I have a huge tendency to overanalyze things like this! I'll probably shoot it through the axefx too just for the sake of my mental health :)

    Please believe me - I really do understand what you're talking about.


    And honestly, as absolutely cheesy as it sounds, the KPA has been a really good thing for my mental health. Not kidding! It has been a very good experience for me. I can think, and think, and think, and think a situation over and over and over in my head. And still not know. Somehow, this forum/the KPA itself has been kind of a stronghold. Because we all hear "the same thing" (much more than we would if we were all sold the same tube amp), but sometimes we don't like what we hear. And this forums is a great place to bounce those things off of. I love this forum, and I love the people on it...so helpful, so engaging, it's a real pleasure to be a part of.

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

  • Please believe me - I really do understand what you're talking about.
    And honestly, as absolutely cheesy as it sounds, the KPA has been a really good thing for my mental health. Not kidding! It has been a very good experience for me. I can think, and think, and think, and think a situation over and over and over in my head. And still not know. Somehow, this forum/the KPA itself has been kind of a stronghold. Because we all hear "the same thing" (much more than we would if we were all sold the same tube amp), but sometimes we don't like what we hear. And this forums is a great place to bounce those things off of. I love this forum, and I love the people on it...so helpful, so engaging, it's a real pleasure to be a part of.


    It's been a huge relief coming from Fractal. I love Axe FX as well, but it's really nice to be able to load up profiles that I KNOW sound real right off the bat - a reference point that's hard to find otherwise. Neither sounds definitively better than the other, but the Axe went straight into my studio only rack as soon as I got to playing with the kemper :P . I still overtweak every possible thing, but the kemper keeps me centered. It's just so friggin easy to get awesome sounds out of!


    For the record - I reamped the same di on a modified bulb rythm patch on the axe II, and it had the same undertones - so I think it's safe to say they belong there. I think my more recent kemper rigs have just brought it out more as I focus on clarity and midrange with less gain to cover it up.

  • It's been a huge relief coming from Fractal. I love Axe FX as well, but it's really nice to be able to load up profiles that I KNOW sound real right off the bat - a reference point that's hard to find otherwise. Neither sounds definitively better than the other, but the Axe went straight into my studio only rack as soon as I got to playing with the kemper :P . I still overtweak every possible thing, but the kemper keeps me centered. It's just so friggin easy to get awesome sounds out of!


    For the record - I reamped the same di on a modified bulb rythm patch on the axe II, and it had the same undertones - so I think it's safe to say they belong there. I think my more recent kemper rigs have just brought it out more as I focus on clarity and midrange with less gain to cover it up.

    Good to hear. Sometimes we overthink shit. Doesn't mean it's not there. But for me, most of the time, I realize it those frequencies should be there, like you seem to be coming to grips with. It's a tough thing, and we're just talking about tone, it's not like it's really all that important. :D


    But it feels pretty good when we get it right. And it sounds like you're mostly happy with the KPA, but sometimes things throw you off. I do get that. Honestly, I have found unexpected solace in the digital nature of the KPA...if something sounds off, I am more likely to suspect the guitar, or the strings, or the humidity, or...the player. :D
    Cause it's all just 1s and 0s. And most of the time it's damn good, so I will trust the rest.


    My 2¢.

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

  • Hey, welcome, Dani! 8o


    If you wanna hear an authentic "clean-mixed-in" tone even 'though it's "not", see if you can find a Matchless Chieftain Profile or even a preset of it on your Axe if it has one.


    One of the best sounds I ever heard on an old POD v2 was a Matchless Chieftain model. I think other Matchless amps exhibit this "behaviour" too. Even if you're only into high-gain sounds, you might still appreciate this "unique" angle. I hear a similar thing going on with some Vox amps, but it's never as-pretty.

  • Hey everyone! I need a sanity check - I noticed today that my profiler seems to be mixing in a portion of the clean DI signal regardless of what patch I use. However, it's totally a possibility that I'm just overanalyzing the sound, and that it sounds exactly as it should. I am attaching 3 short samples. One is the dry DI recorded via SPDIF, and the other two are the profiles. One of them is a custom profile that I use, and the other is the untouched LL Nineties Finest rig that comes with the Kemper. In both cases, I can hear what sounds like the DI whenever longish chords are played.


    All samples recorded / reamped via SPDIF, but I have also tested going direct in with no SPDIF connected and get the same results. I've checked and rechecked my interface settings to make sure there's not an extra input or loop causing it, and I've tried changing any parameter I can on the kemper itself (the DI mix level is definitely 0 for both). I'd really appreciate a second set of ears, or if your willing, use the DI track with your factory LL 90's patch and see if there's any difference. Please excuse the random and terrible playing :) - I just wanted to paint the whole picture! Played on a C7 w/BN Juggernaut pickups in A standard.


    WARNING: They are loud @ -1dB peak and -9dB LUFS so you may wanna turn down your speakers


    Hello @danimaetrix,


    Two settings you might want to check.


    But first, please download the newest revision to the comprehensive owner/user manual, which is entitled "KEMPER PROFILER -- Main Manual 5.5", and is available here:


    https://www.kemper-amps.com/downloads/5/User-Manuals


    The two settings on your KPA that you might have inadvertently adjusted (or perhaps came that way, if you purchased your KPA second hand, from a prior owner):


    PAGE 49 -- Parallel Path (under Rig Settings)


    This feature was designed for bass players, but you are free to use it with any other instrument. The PROFILER offers a wide variety of PROFILEs for bass players, as well as numerous effects and distortions that can be used in combination with a bass. Distortion or overdrive introduced by amps or pedals can result in the bass guitar losing some of its fundamental frequencies, as well as some dynamic range. To compensate for this, a parallel feed of the undistorted bass signal is usually mixed to the distorted, or otherwise processed, signal.

    The Rig settings provide a parallel signal path, which feeds directly to the output section, bypassing both the stack section and the effect modules X, MOD, DLY, and REV. When “Parallel Path” is activated, module A and B become exclusive to the parallel path, allowing you to add compression and EQ, for example. modules C and D remain within the regular signal path, along with the Stack and subsequent effect modules. This routing is visualized by the signal chain on the home screen.

    soft button 1 ”Parallel Path” enables and disables this function. When enabled, the “Parallel Path Mix” parameter determines the balance between the parallel path (more to the left) and the regular signal path (more to the right). If you use effects like distortion or compression in one of the two paths, you might find that the levels of each differ significantly. This is because the signal level is usually dependent on the instrument level, but this is often not the case when distortion or compression are involved. You can avoid level deviations like this by adjusting “Clean Sens” in the Input menu. “Clean Sens” balances clean and distorted (or compressed) sounds to equal levels. This also affects the Parallel Path.
    ✓ To learn more about the “Clean Sens” parameter, refer to the respective paragraph or to the tutorial about the input
    section available at: http://www.kemper-amps.com/video
    ✓ A tutorial video dedicated to Parallel Path can also be found at: http://www.kemper-amps.com/video


    PAGE 107 -- Direct Mix


    With “Direct Mix” you can open up a parallel path to the amplifier distortion and mix a clean portion of the guitar to the distorted sound. This will add some dynamics and attack to the sound, as well as adding some of the frequency content of the clean guitar. Traditionally, similar results were achieved by running the guitar through a clean and a distorted amplifier in parallel (“dual amping”) - now, it can be done with a twist of a knob. “Direct Mix” controls the volume of the clean portion.


    Cheers,
    John

  • I thought of this instantly when reading the OP, John, but then I wasn't sure whether or not the settings could be locked or if they remained in place after adjustment when selecting other Rigs, so said nothing 'cause Dani said:


    I noticed today that my profiler seems to be mixing in a portion of the clean DI signal regardless of what patch I use...

  • I'll put my two cents in this discussion for what it is worth... You are not crazy or over analyzing anything here...
    I have had to deal with this phenomena ever since rev 3.00. It is real and for whatever reason the people in the drivers seat look the other way and say. " We have never heard of this before " " Maybe you are just imagining it ? " Yeah right ... That's their way of avoiding the issue.


    Here is my take coming from a perspective of actually writing signal processing code. There are two ways of introducing clean into mix.
    The first being done by the Hardware via codec internal mixer or digitally controlled analog circuitry functionalities and the second being performed in the DSP processing using the input buffers. It could be true that not all KPA's are exhibiting this... Mine and yours are...
    So what could be the source of this problem... If the direct is a function of hardware it could be a flaw in the codec that is not fully muting the input signal from the final output. The second and more insidious cause could be some sort of internal initialization of the DSP boot state or some rouge program pointer corrupting that memory location or even worse code mapping issues where all sorts of weird erroneous manifestations not unlike some of the post made in this forum that are met with you must have a bad midi cord and such. The Kpa for sure is awesome at its core and when the stars are aligned its as good as it gets. I'd love to help Kemper fix and find the solutions but they take the attitude that there is nothing wrong with their coding..... but they will be releasing some new reverb's soon ?


    The point I am attempting to make here is that there have been operational problems with this product for years that have never been fully addressed yet Kemper continues to move forward developing new features and improvements compacting the code to maximize memory within every new version release. Of coarse I will be pummeled for my opinions,,, That's ok ! I understand ...
    The KPA team is very sensitive and highly protective of their own.


    What If the problems that I have outlined above are the result of being caused by the compiler , assembler or programmers themselves.
    If so all of these strange anomalies will continue for the life of this product. For instance midi buffer overflows can cause problems in many ways such as unwanted parameters changing , system crash and weird happenings due to stack pointer overflow issues and memory buss contention. Issues of this nature allude programmers and some either haven't enough experience to know where to begin finding the needle in the code haystack or they continue moving forward hoping the problems will just go away.


    Believe me it is not fun or easy to take the bull by the horns and find the solutions. I have faced these exact challenges and know what the warning signs are and how to go about locating the causes and fixing them.


    On the other hand In the defense of the Kemper programming team chances are pretty good that Kemper has limited programming resources that are working on the latest and greatest algorithm improvements and literally cannot afford devoting indeterminate amount of time $$$ that could be needed to chase down all of the digital gremlins where ever they may be within the hardware or firmware .
    A programmers worse nightmares are the problems users experience that can not be duplicated in their environment.
    But even those anomalies that can not be replicated are silently speaking to them.... whispering " NASA we have a problem "
    Its a vicious cycle ....


    Moral of this Story:


    As an end user like you for the time being I accept all these things because the KPA produces some great tone even despite the direct leakage. Would I rather it didn't have this issue? Yeah.... I know its there and it is mildly annoying but not to the point that makes the product unusable. Maybe someday somehow by some quirk of fate one of the programmers or engineers will just happen to discover that something from within the countless lines of code or even an internal interrupt or memory arbitration logic flaw within the MCU that yields an implementation of a firmware worked around that fixes many of the unexplained issues once and for all.


    That is until the a new kid on the block builds a better mouse trap! Its just a matter of time.
    Just remember back to when KPA was first released. A milestone in of itself by Christoph Kemper as profound as those of Leo Fender, Les Paul, Jim Marshall and Mike Battle [Inventor of the ECHO-PLEX ] .


    Every dog has it day in the sun. At this moment Kemper is the top dog. And that's still very good for all of us !


    FYI: I have owned and loved my KPA since 2014 ... I am hardly a beginner with the product as well as other related aspects !

  • SgtPepper,


    I had your case on my desk years ago, and I remember that you confirmed that problem was soon solved by a system reset.
    Are we missing something?


    In contradiction to our support case way back, you now post that the problem is still present on your Profiler and you suggest that you can observe the same problem in the audio clips the OP has posted. That is that the clean guitar is bleeding thru.


    To Danimaetrix: I have listened to your clips and I can reassure that there is no direct audio on top of your distorted guitar. It‘s a good thing that you posted clips instantly to be checked by the community. Everyone will be posessed by weird sensations some times (including myself for sure), and it‘s good to get it sorted out, or even verified.


    To SgtPepper: instead of posting revealing clips to present a potential problem, you opted for creating a one page post instead. Everyone knows by now that you have some kind of agenda. I don’t remember to have listened to clips from you about this problem even in the past. Follow the OP and post clips on this thread as well, so we can check if there is something wrong with your device.




    PS: there is actually one way to have the clean guitar bleed through in parallel to the amp, on every rig.
    That is when you use the Alternative Input as your guitar input and when at the same time one of the Aux Input levels are set other than zero. In this case the Alternative input is mixed to the respective output.


    So if you don‘t use the Aux Input feature, then check for all Aux volumes to be set to zero in the Output menu. Those volume are also set to zero by a system reset.


    CK

  • @ckemper On the one hand you accuse @SgtPepper of having an agenda and in the next paragraph you say that there is a way that this can happen! By the way, not “everyone” knows he has an agenda as I don’t believe he does. Also, on my phone at least it is less than one page. Less hyperbole more facts maybe?

  • @ckemper On the one hand you accuse @SgtPepper of having an agenda and in the next paragraph you say that there is a way that this can happen! By the way, not “everyone” knows he has an agenda as I don’t believe he does. Also, on my phone at least it is less than one page. Less hyperbole more facts maybe?

    You pedant. If I were CK, I would not even honor this with a response.


    What he wrote was clear and unambiguous, just like most of his posts.


    It appears that Pepper issued a support ticket, then he considered it resolved after support was given (I have a feeling that if this were not true, we would have heard about it from Captain Pepper). @SgtPepper: Is CK correct that you considered the ticket resolved...or is he lying to us all? Or are you being a little disingenuous? Or have you just continued to suffer in silence?


    Then, Pepper chooses to complain with...no clips, no nothing, just bitching in commiseration.


    Then, CK was kind enough to mention the one possible way this could happen, and the solution to it, and your response is this???


    Pathetic...you can troll better than this, surely?


    No wonder you have the post/like ratio that you do...ditto for Pepper.


    Also, on my phone at least it is less than one page.


    I'm dying here. You can't have been serious when you typed that? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


    Please say it was a joke. The alternative is not kind to you.


    What size screen? Must be a bigun, huh boy? :D:D:D:D



    EDIT: Wait! I just got on my old iPhone 4s...and I really have to call ckemper out on this...because you are sooooo right! In fact, on this piece of shit, it's 2 pages!!! Oh. My. God.



    What if...Ck was on a "personal computer" (are you familiar with these?) @ 1366x768 resolution and a "14 screen...the post in question actually takes 1 1/2 pages!!!



    But...maybe, just maybe, instead of page length, you could possibly understand that CK was pointing out that instead of posting actual useful information (a clip, if he still has the problem)...he just typed a lot about how smart he is and provided nothing but a shoulder to cry on...regarding a ticket that was closed. If he still had/has the issue..there should either be a ticket, a KPA for sale, or...nothing.

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

    Edited 10 times, last by Locrain ().

  • I'd love to help Kemper fix and find the solutions but they take the attitude that there is nothing wrong with their coding..... but they will be releasing some new reverb's soon?


    This makes me seriously doubt your claims of expertise in the area. You should know that introducing new reverbs has nothing whatsoever to do with bottom line nuts and bolts coding, and to compare the two is nonsense...


    The solidity (or lack thereof) of the basic nuts-and-bolts of the KPA, and the fact the they could use new drives/reverbs are unrelated. Or perhaps you'd like to educate me on this specific issue.

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

    Edited once, last by Locrain ().

  • It took you 10 edits to write this?

  • IMHO, Sounds like a guitar setup issue. Examples; thick string gauge, high action, slightly bowed neck, pickup not high enough. All would cause the tone you have. The Kemper does not hide guitar setup nor playing technique.