The 'Foundational Sonics of the KPA' thread (officially sanctioned by CK)

    Quote from MaxTwang


    Could you share this suggestion with us?
    I've played with the deep amp parameters but I'm missing something in the 'feel' of pick responsiveness. The Definition parameter is in the ballpark, but I'm wondering if it would help to have the Definition parameter decrease as input voltage increases (less Definition with harder picking) and being able to set the sensitivity of this.


    Bill's suggestion was simple but effective - 'While you're still working to get exactly what you need from the standard amp profiles, just profile the tour-tested sounds from your present modelers...' This has worked surprisingly well, and somehow 'feels' better. ;) At times I get the feeling the KPA Amp could use a 'slew rate' parameter, which could effect the way the note attacks are felt & heard...

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Quote from Radley

    just profile the tour-tested sounds from your present modelers
    This has worked surprisingly well, and somehow 'feels' better. ;)

    You know why?
    Because your fingers are used to the feel of your tour tested modellers & tones.
    The "surprisingly, and somehow feels better" part is the Kempers ability to reproduce that feel. :)


    Now all you got to do is do some touring with your Kemper and after a couple of months your old modellers will 'feel' wrong. :D


    I'll never forget the English soccer players at the 2010 World Cup in SAfrica.
    They turned from geniuses in Europe to pathetic in SAfrica.
    Why?
    Because the Adidas ball used at the World Cup was a completely new ball, new design, new material, much lighter, they had never played with a ball like this before.
    They lost all their feel & control of the ball, they said it felt all wrong, it flew to fast, it swerved in the air, they complained everyday until the went home.


    You know what the German team did?
    They played with the 'new design' ball for a year before the World Cup, they used it in their Bundesliga season...they never complained once during the entire World Cup, and they were brilliant. :D

    To use your analogy, the Kemper is supposed to capture the 'DNA' of my old ball. I shouldn't have to spend time getting used to a new ball.


    Radley/Bill's suggestion points out the issue that other people's rigs tend to sound and feel awkward until we tweak them for ourselves (this isn't new to the KPA). Radley reports he is most comfortable with profiles of his gear as he sets it up, I'm most comfortable with profiles of my gear as I set it up. This shouldn't be a surprise as it supports Kemper's marketing claim that you can profile your gear as your like it!


    But there is still an issue with attack response that some have reported in their own profiles? This could, in part, be related to why other people's rigs don't always 'feel' right? The solutions might be related.


    To look at this constructively: Is there something in the feel and attack that could be addressed, improved and possibly parametrized that would allow the user to further tweak the 'feel' of their own and other's patches?


    I was playing with the 'Clean Sens' and 'Distorted Sens' briefly this morning and these might be more powerful than just adjusting the relative level of clean and distorted patches.

    Quote from MaxTwang

    [quote='Guitartone',index.php?page=Thread&postID=26861#post26861]



    I was playing with the 'Clean Sens' and 'Distorted Sens' briefly this morning and these might be more powerful than just adjusting the relative level of clean and distorted patches.


    they are! go for it!

    MaxTwang - I think you're mistaken, the KPA is designed to capture the "DNA" of a real amp, not of a modeler or anything else (it even says as such in the manual).


    If your old "ball" is a real amp then fine, but if it's a modeller that doesn't react or act like a real amp then there's not much you can expect. The KPA isn't a 'sound like anything' device, otherwise you could link a couple of keyboards one sending out a sine wave the other a piano as the return and make your guitar sound like a piano, or an organ, or a train or anything else. it just ain't gonna happen. It's a 'sound like an amp' device, given that to my ears the KPA is the first modeller that actually does sounds like an amp then it's not surprising that profiling others probably wont work all that well.

    Just for clarification: I am saying that using this technique (profiling my other modelers & preamps) makes the attacks feel more natural to my touch, making the KPA more enjoyable for yours truly to use. As with other equipment, I do whatever it takes to get the feel that helps me to play & 'emote' most effectively - I try everything I can think of before I write any unit off. I prefer the sounds I hear on well-produced records, not so much the typical sound that comes from a standard miked amp.

    All modelers known to man 8o

    "just profile the tour-tested sounds from your present modelers...' This has worked surprisingly well, and somehow 'feels' better. At times I get the feeling the KPA Amp could use a 'slew rate' parameter, which could effect the way the note attacks are felt & heard..."


    strange you are not making the connection about what you are used to and what is new. specially if after profiling your sound and modellers the kemper suddenly feels better.


    have you tried adjusting the pick attack parameter?

    Quote from audioholic

    have you tried adjusting the pick attack parameter?


    Are you joshing me? I spend at least 2 hours every day playing with every parameter available, trying to master what they can & can't do - also, there are certain parameter combinations that work better together than by themselves. Believe me, I have run this puppy through it's paces, and will continue to do so.... 8o

    All modelers known to man 8o

    I still believe my suggestion of adding a 'direct' mix parameter to the Amp section would help in achieving a more natural attack, but 'what do I know of love?'... 8o

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Quote from Per

    MaxTwang - I think you're mistaken, the KPA is designed to capture the "DNA" of a real amp, not of a modeler or anything else (it even says as such in the manual).

    I didn't say it was designed to capture anything but a real amp but I have read posts from users, including Kemper Pioneers and early adopters, who were very happy with profiles of modellers (even saying they liked the profile better than the actual modeller). If someone models something and likes it - good for them.



    Quote from audioholic

    have you tried adjusting the pick attack parameter?

    Yes, I find it emphasizes the sound of pick attack but doesn't help with feel.

    Edited once, last by MaxTwang ().

    Quote from Radley

    Just for clarification: I am saying that using this technique (profiling my other modelers & preamps) makes the attacks feel more natural to my touch, making the KPA more enjoyable for yours truly to use. As with other equipment, I do whatever it takes to get the feel that helps me to play & 'emote' most effectively - I try everything I can think of before I write any unit off. I prefer the sounds I hear on well-produced records, not so much the typical sound that comes from a standard miked amp.


    Why even keep the Kemper just to profile a modeler you already have that you like the feel of better? Just use the other modeler. It's like buying a Canon to photograph the prints out of your Nikon because you like the feel of Nikon better. :D

    Edited once, last by Animus ().

    Are you trying to talk me into getting rid of it??? I am keeping my Kemper because it sounds rather different than my other equipment - this can be a very good thing when you're in the studio and need a totally different sound than your norm. I am also keeping it because I have faith that Christoph will not rest until it is the best it can be. If I can use the KPA to capture the best sounds from *all* my favorite modelers, that is worth a lot in itself.... whether that can be done effectively remains to be seen...

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Edited once, last by Radley ().

    Quote from Radley

    Are you trying to talk me into getting rid of it???

    Definitely NOT!


    I love the idea of you continuously owning experimenting with the KPA.
    It means I can look forward to some great Profiles like the 'Lancer', and some great rigs that you might share.


    Admit it, the KPA is addictive, it's very difficult to get rid of once you've spent some time with it. :)

    Quote from Radley


    Exactly. It is the DNA of the Kemper digital distortion algorithm that is not right (or at least not analog enough) imho.

    While I completely respect your opinion, I just don't hear any inherent sound to the KPA. It just sounds like what I feed it. It could maybe get closer to what I feed it (in terms of bass response) if I want to be picky about it (but I like the lack of mud) but in no cases do I hear a "signature" sound from profile to profile. And as far as analog enough goes, the last thing I would use to describe the sound of the KPA is "digital". I have consistently fooled not only myself, but in all blind shootouts I have posted the results were a coin toss. Maybe CK can chime in to articulate whether in fact there is any algo that affects all profiles and if so, to what degree it contributes.

    This thread over here got me thinking : http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1044372


    I have to agree with him, after going through every profile on the Kemper including user downloads none of them quite have that same bite when you dig in, there's a sort of slightly too smooth/slightly too even result from the Kemper every time. Digging in even with single coils I just can't get near that same tone. Now I think the KPA is better than I've heard form other modellers, but for sure there are areas for improvement, because I can definitely get a lot closer to the desirable characteristics (though obviously not the EQ shape overall tone and the mesa has a different distortion shape to a Marshall) with my real amp.


    OK so you're saying "In that case profile your god damn amp fool", so that's exactly what I did.


    Here's an AB (first is Kemper second is Amp) : http://www.peranders.com/general/mesa525classa_not_right.mp3


    And here's the profile in case anyone wants to explore it : http://www.peranders.com/general/MESA525classA.zip


    The results were disappointing. With this soft of dynamic spongy tone it just can't seem to nail it. It got the overall signature, but listening to the results side by side afterwards there's not so much a missing low end as a missing low end response, i.e. at the right points of digging in and playing chords there's this lovely blooming lows and mids tone on the original amp (mic up against the grill off center), that just isn't there n the profile where it's just flat "on" all the time, if there's bass it's there all the time, same with the mids. Then the trebles were harsh. And it doesn't matter how long I refine for or what I do while refining, it never gets there. This was after about half an hour or refining with every approach I can think of and then doing a little ab test like above in a DAW to hear the result inbetween each refining session (usually refining from between 20 seconds to a couple of minutes), with each refining session trying a different approach.


    Now with distortion in the other channel I can get a good result, it's a smoother flatter distortion and the Kemper pretty much nails it. In this channel though where the classic crunch tones are the Kemper just doesn't seem to be able to go there. The settings for those interested are :


    [Blocked Image: http://www.peranders.com/general/mesasettings01.jpg]
    (Reverb is actually off though you can't tell easily from the image as it's controlled by the pedal).


    So this isn't a case of a failing in power amp modeling (that others have noted), as you can see the power section is way down low (the THD hotplate was set to -4dB but the output was still plenty loud enough and the mic was right up against the grill so room noise should be pretty minimal in this case).


    I really hope this can be improved because that's exactly where most of the classic guitar tones exist. This spongy crunchy tone area, often associated with power amp distortion (not in this instance though). It's about the way it sounds on string attack (pick attack doesn't change things it just compresses the transient which actually makes it more even sounding), the response curve at different volumes, when the bass kicks in versus the treble and so on. Nothing I could do tweaking the amp parameters, or adding different kinds of fx and reverbs or changing the cabs could help this. Maybe someone else can get closer or has an answer, or perhaps Christoph might know what's going on. I'd really love to be able to get those sorts of tones and feels with the Kemper, as at this point I have to agree with Radley and those others who are also missing this (and I hope my post helps illustrate the problem in a useful and constructive/clear way that's useful for Kemper and other users).

    Edited once, last by Per ().

    I didn't read your post correctly, as I listened I thought you had said the first part was the amp and second the Kemper.
    So of course my guitarist brain re-programmed to find fault in the second part because you said that's the "disappointing" part...that's what happened, I forced myself to admit the second part had less dynamics, was slightly 'muffled' and lacked some clarity...then I re read your post.


    I checked the Profile out.
    The Definition is on 10, maxed out.
    I turned it down to about 3.5 or 4.
    Then I added a Compressor stomp upfront which chills out the high end a little.


    The Clean Sense is also on 10, you must be using single coils.


    Overall, I really dig your Profile, I've made a bunch of rigs with it and they sound great.



    i didn't mess with the profile yet, but i'll share this for a last time:


    experiment with the input settings, especially the clean sense! it does make a big difference! (for me lower is better, also with singlecoils) definition on 10 is also something that wouldn't have come to my mind for the sound you're after... but i know it's tempting to max it out for getting more "felt" amp-response, but i already cluttered this place with my thoughts about that... ;)

    Quote from Radley

    Christoph - I am profiling much of my equipment (I have boat-loads!) :wacko: with the KPA to find what gets the best results for my ear and touch. I have now profiled 6 of my own tube amps, and numerous modelers, preamps, and distortion pedals - this is all to get a feel for what the Kemper does best (for my particular sonic needs). The advantage of profiling my touring modelers is the obvious time I have put into the presets (pre-EQ, post-EQ distortion timbre, de-fizzing, etc) - this leaves the KPA EQ and Amp/Cab parameters available for additional tweaking - it's the overdriven touch and finesse that I can't duplicate yet...


    Radley, you seem to have no interest in answering my questions.
    This leaves room for assumptions: You are more interested in pointing out diffuse problems rather that finding solutions.
    You have gotten used to modeling amps and augmented amp sounds.
    You compare the sound of the KPA with synthesized ampifier simulations.


    I am sorry, but we only deliver authentic profiles of real amps, not synthesized amps.
    If you like modelers better than the sound of real amps, you should go for it.
    Modelers can be like fruit candies with artificial flavour. If you taste a real apple afterwards, you might be dissapointed.


    If I got you wrong, please provide precise information, as others do.
    Please post an A/B comparison, as others do.