How do you guys build rigs?

  • Hi all,


    I am pretty new to the Kemper. Before it I had a line6 pod x3 live and an engl VS.


    After almost two weeks I am getting warmer with it and have found a couple of profiles that I can build on. I found these completely on accident after I didn’t like any of the high gain amps I was recommended. And this is where my question kicks off: How do you build your sounds if you have a specific sound in mind?


    I want to give two examples:
    1) Of course, it would be ideal for me, if I could keep playing hat sweet, sweet Engl. I searched for it and found that someone had profiled 6 versions of it. However, I do not have any context for these, or do I? What settings were used? How do 4 amp channels translate into 6 kemper channels? And what settings were used? Probably not mine, as no one in their right mind would profile an amp with a mid heavy sound, when it sounds so bad on its own?
    I later found out, that Ola also has a VS profile, but that is pretty scooped as well.
    Also would be nice to contact the guy who made the profile and tell him how to dial in the amp correctly and redo the profile. Where could I ask for this?


    2) this is more of a comment. I also wanted to find a John Petrucci IIC+ profile, so I went looking for mark2c and mark IIc. A few popped up, but none wowed me. Yesterday I stumbled on someone mentioning a JP2C here in the forum. I looked for it and apparently, someone profiled 3 pages worth of that amp in various settings. Some of which I really liked. Seriously, what’s up with that? Is there any way to effectively narrow down choices?
    And is there any way to get the artists profiles or at least something similar? E.g. Trivium uses Kemper on tour, can I just get their profiles somewhere?


    Yeah, basically just wondering how you approach 1 sound and 13.000 choices without context?


    Also if anyone has high gain recommendations, I’m listening.

  • Hey,


    However, I do not have any context for these, or do I? What settings were used?

    There's no detailed information about amp settings, only amount of gain, which is intrinsic to a profile. However information about actual amp settings can be provided by the profile creator, but I don't think anyone actually does this.


    I searched for it and found that someone had profiled 6 versions of it. How do 4 amp channels translate into 6 kemper channels? And what settings were used?

    Kemper makes snapshot of an amp sound with fixed settings. Not the whole amp with all it's channels and gain/EQ/presence knobs response, so the knobs that you see on the Kemper do not exactly correspond to those on the amp, they're just Kemper's "interpretation". That way, all those 6 profiles could be profiles of one 4th channel, but with different gain/EQ settings; or 2 profiles of 1st channel, 2 profiles of 2nd channel and 2 profiles of 3rd channel, but with different settings; etc.


    Also would be nice to contact the guy who made the profile and tell him how to dial in the amp correctly and redo the profile. Where could I ask for this?

    I think you should try a couple of other options before that:

    • If the profile is almost what you need, but not quite there, you can try to tweak it – there are settings for the amp, eq and cab; also you can try adding stomps
    • If the profile is far from what you need, then try another profile and if it almost fits – tweak it)

    This should get you the desired sound in most cases. But if not, I think people in the Commercial rigs and profiles or Free rigs and profiles discussions can help you with that.


    Is there any way to effectively narrow down choices?


    Yeah, basically just wondering how you approach 1 sound and 13.000 choices without context?
    Also if anyone has high gain recommendations, I’m listening.

    I narrow my choices by searching profiles from creators which were recommended by people on this forum) If I need high gain sound, I check one from Deadlight Studio, Lasse Lammert, ChopTones and Lars Luettge. If I want some clean or crunchy tone, I search some from Tone Junkie or M. Britt. Basically I don't spend much time on every profile while choosing – if I don't like one from first chords or chops, then I try the next profile.


    Hope this helps)

  • Good post, Thrash.


    Mentioning commercial Profilers may get the thread moved to an appropriate subforum, but what the heck, 'tis done now.


    ... so the knobs that you see on the Kemper do not exactly correspond to those on the amp, they're just Kemper's "interpretation".

    This implies that the behaviour varies from Profile to Profile, but in fact it's Kemper's generic, best-for-most-situations concoction.


    IMHO, it's actually very-good. It's also a good thing that the behaviour's consistent 'cause let's face it, with so many thousands of Profiles and hundreds of Profiled amps out there, this expedites tweaking 'cause one's working with known quantities.


    If I need high gain sound, I check one from Deadlight Studio, Lasse Lammert, ChopTones and Lars Luettge.

    Lars is actually Deadlight Studio (user name Deadlightstudio), BTW. Just FYI, mate.

  • Kemper makes snapshot of an amp sound with fixed settings. Not the whole amp with all it's channels and gain/EQ/presence knobs response, so the knobs that you see on the Kemper do not exactly correspond to those on the amp, they're just Kemper's "interpretation". That way, all those 6 profiles could be profiles of one 4th channel, but with different gain/EQ settings; or 2 profiles of 1st channel, 2 profiles of 2nd channel and 2 profiles of 3rd channel, but with different settings; etc

    I was more asking a rethorical question here. There's just no way to know, what the settings are and where they are in relation to what I'm used to.


    Is there a place to request specific profiles?

  • There are many Rigs that include the actual amp Settings in the Rig Tags. In Rig Manager, you can easily display all of the Tags.


    Right click on the Tags in the header of the folder you are viewing, and select All.


    As an aside, if a Rig sounds good to me, the original amp settings are not necessarily relevant to me.

    Thanks!
    But is there actually a tag that allows to enter the data?


    As long as it sounds good all is good, but if I'm looking for a specific sound it would be helpful to have this info and filter for it.
    The whole point of the Kemper (as I understand it) is to reproduce sounds of the original. If it's going to be at random settings this is only ever going to get me that far.
    Especially with the Smolski, I would like to get some of the gimmicks profiled in, as well.
    My standard setting was very mid heavy, to the point where it only sounds great with the band. This setting would be pretty hard to figure out with just the headphones plugged into the kemper. It would also be nice to have some of the features profiled, e.g. the mid voice setting. Would you be able to hear, that the mid frequency just went up a couple of Hz? I wouldn't. Especially not without a Band around me.
    As much as I love the Amp, if someone doesn't profile it at something resembling a good setting, there's not much tweaking to be done since the mid frequency of the kemper might be completely different.


    Also, I really dislike the classification of amps by gain. My gain setting on the Smolski was 4 for rhythm and 6 for lead. Still managed to sound absolutely brutal.


    I don't mean to start anything here, but for me usability is a major shortcoming of an otherwise great product, as most of the time using it is spent turning knobs and trying to stumble on that tone.

  • Talking about Kemper profiles is talking about the whole signal chain. You can not necessarily compare amp settings from an "amp in the room tone" to amp settings of a miced up tone (maybe dual miced with colouring of preamps or another cab / speaker model / mic technique used).


    Often the sweetspots on a certain cab are almost the same with different amps and to get the best result one has to turn the amp eq - or use a different voiced mic or combination of mics. Just want to say amp setting alone is good to know for direct amp profiles (to get an idea), but gets less important as more gear of the signal chain colours the sound.

  • Given every amp has a different config, how would you store that ( note the number of options on boogies - triode/pentode, push pull boosts etc)? Note you'd need all the mike and cab characteristics stored.


    ...and does it matter? For me I don't care how the amp was set but how it sounds. There should be enough info in the tags to get you in the right direction ( level of gain, amp and cab etc). Which channel it came from, unless you intimately know the amp won't mean much. For example do you know the difference between channel 3 and 4 on an ENGL Invader? I had one for 3 years and I don't know..


    Yes 13,000 choices are in themselves a limitation but look at it a different way, find the types of amps you like and gain level and just keep trying. It takes time but results are worth it. I needed up with and ENGL for solos and Mesa for rhythm, ac30 for cleans...pretty easy to guess that.

  • If you are that specific about an amp setting, the best way is to get your hands on that amp, tweak your specific setting and profile it yourself. It is not a standard modeller like a pod; profiles of the same amp + cab models even at the same settings will vary from one creator to another depending on many things such as how it's miked etc. Some profilers indicate the knob/switch settings but ultimately, you should let your ears guide you.


    If you use Rig Exchange, I suggest sorting first by 1) the amp you are after 2) the amount of gain 3) the user rating if applicable, then find a couple of "winners" and compare them side by side (in the context of a mix and at gig volume if possible) until you have one or two. Then minimally tweak/eq those to taste if needed.


    By repeating this process often, you can often find certain profile authors that you consistently like and some that you consistently dislike and eventually you can stick to those that kind of share your sense of tone to limit your selection.

  • My standard setting was very mid heavy, to the point where it only sounds great with the band. This setting would be pretty hard to figure out with just the headphones plugged into the kemper. It would also be nice to have some of the features profiled, e.g. the mid voice setting. Would you be able to hear, that the mid frequency just went up a couple of Hz? I wouldn't. Especially not without a Band around me.

    So your main reason for looking into profiled amp settings is the lack of context (specifically your band), right?
    If that's the case, then I think you need the EQ curve for the profile itself, and not profiled rig information (amp gain, eq, stomps, speakers, mics, etc). Thus you can compare EQ of your "mid heavy" rig with profiles by, for example, recording them in the DAW and looking at the EQ curve. Or recording your band and auditioning profile with that context.

  • Hi guys,


    Thanks for all your answers! And a special thanks for putting up with grumpy old me. I know that this is a good place for a discussion, (especially thinking about the meltdowns that would have happened on the line6 forum by now). I just want to extract most from my Kemper as I’ve already heard how good it can sound when you dial it in properly.


    I should mention that I am very familiar with the miked up sound of the VS. In my last band we used in ear monitoring on stage and during rehearsal, so I know the miked up sound a lot better than the in room sound.


    Here is how I would solve my problem if I were Kemper:
    1. Get rid of the number of amp names for a single amp, replacing them with a moderated list. I know that this might be due to licensing issues, but I’d still have a moderated list of the fantasy names and a list of what amp they correspond to. This would resolve the issue of filtering for all the amp names, e.g. x different names for the mark2c (mark 2c, markiic, JP2c).
    2. Same for cabs.
    3. Add dedicated fields for the standard knobs and settings: gain, Bass, mid, treble, presence, (depth punch) and channel number.
    4. Add empty fields to put in additional, amp specific settings, e.g. mid-voiced, bright switch, etc.
    5. If all else fails, an easier way to contact the creator


    I realize, that 3 might not be entirely necessary if we go by ear, but if there are a lot of profiles for an amp it would help with sorting.

  • Definitely +1 for a consistent (moderated) list of names. My biggest single frustration trying to find stuff is the number of different names for the same thing.


    I fail to see how there are copyright issues with putting the real amp data in tags. I understand manufacturers taking issue with advertising and naming packs etc as their products. However, the tag amp name and amp model for example are simply statements of fact. “Which amp was used during the profiling process? Mesa Boogie Rev F Dual Rectifier” simple statement of fact not an attempt to pass something off as something it isn’t.

  • I believe that was the case at line6. They couldn’t use the real amp names because of copyright issues.


    I’m completely with you for the Kemper, though. No reason to call it angel if an actual engl was used.

  • IIRC Line6 did name them in the manuals; just not in advertising or on the units themselves. I can only speak for the (pre-Helix) PODs 'though.


    Of course, naming them in manuals can be likened to the tag metadata; only users who've bought the units would be seeing them and not the "general public".

  • IIRC Line6 did name them in the manuals; just not in advertising or on the units themselves. I can only speak for the (pre-Helix) PODs 'though.


    Of course, naming them in manuals can be likened to the tag metadata; only users who've bought the units would be seeing them and not the "general public".

    yes Nicky, but the even more important aspect as far I can see it with profiles its a a simple statement of fact so can’t be breach of copyright. (Mind you I’m not a lawyer so what would I know)


    On a separate note what do you call a boat full of lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start! Boom tish. Thank you, thank you, you've bee a wonderful audience. goodnight

  • The "statement of fact" still technically relates to what a Profile (model to the rest of the world) is based on, just as the old L6 manuals stated which amps the various models available within the PODs were based on, Alan.


    OK, I just checked, and I was right - the POD XT Manual, Version 3, Rev H, starts a full rundown of the amps the models are based on, including pictures of the real things, starting on page 5•5.


    Here's the first one as an example of the layout. Note the asterisked caveat, which would apply equally to Profiles:


    Zen Master - Based on* a Budda Twinmaster 2x12 combo


    Screen Shot 2018-10-01 at 4.27.23 am.jpg

    The Budda has a great, warm, Class A/B, sound. The Budda philosophy is all about power tube distortion. Simplicity is the key. With relatively low front end gain, highly interactive tone controls, and tube rectifier “sag,” it’s great at getting a classic cranked sound for small gigs and recording (it’s all of 18 watts). Since the original Twinmaster has no mid control, we’ve added a little bonus to our model in the form of some post-Amp Model mid contouring available via PODxt’s middle control. As is true for all such “bo- nus” tone controls on PODxt’s models, you should set this control to 12 o’clock to get groovy with the unadorned Budda-style vibe.


    We used the Twinmaster’s Input 2, which is lower gain, when creating this model.


    *All product names are trademarks of their respective owners, which are in no way associated or af- filiated with Line 6.These product names, descriptions and images are provided for the sole purpose of identifying the specific products that were studied during Line 6’s sound model development.

  • I hear what you are saying Nicky but there is a sublte but very important difference between Line 6 and Axe Fx modelling and a profile. In the case of modelling the resultant sound is “based on” by analysing a real amp than someone trying to emulate the characteristics ina separate stage. Whereas in the case of a Kemper profile a signal is physically fed through the actual amp in question and in the same stage captured as a snapshot in time of that actual physical amp. To my mind that makes all the difference between an interpretation and a statement of fact.

  • Yes, the difference in accuracy and method of acquisition is certainly there, Alan, but in essence, they're all fundamentally classed as models of the originals, IOW, approximations, regardless of their individual authenticities.


    Any laws governing them ought therefore to be applied equally across-the-board, IMHO.


    So, IMHO, the fact that L6 was able to name the originals, not as "inspirations", but actual units that were analysed and modelled, should mean that we'd be able to tag our Profiles (the Exchange ones are what we're talking about here of course) with real-world names.


    This is technically off-topic, so we should probably end this aspect of the discussion. The need for consistency in tag names is real 'though IMHO, 'cause I too find the plethora of bogus alternative names extremely-frustrating-to-navigate.