Headphone output better than SPDIF output when recording

    I'll start with one of the tracks from our album


    Iliad - Fallen Angel



    It SHOULD sound crushing.
    We have found some superb Mesa Boogie DR2 profiles from SinMix, Josh Middleton, ChopTones etc


    When we hear other recordings using those profiles they sound stunning.


    When we hear the tones via the Kemper headphones they also sound stunning.


    But when we hear them via SPDIF via the Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 they sound very poor (low volume, loss of quality, lower gain etc) - Honestly it sounds like a cheap boss pedal
    Have also heard analog sounds as well and it has the same issue before anyone assumes this is a SPDIF issue.


    We are experienced Kemper users and we've recorded an album using Cubase 7.5


    W've been re-amping for over a year. We've never been totally happy with the sound.
    But we never really worried as we knew we could re-amp again at the end of the album.


    We've read the amazing re-amp guide on here and don't have any issues with the process.


    I know the sound has to be converted to analog for the focusrite headphones but the difference is so great it cannot be anything to do with that.


    If the sounds from Kemper are like we are getting nobody would buy it. But we know from other vids using same profiles that it can sound superb.


    When we turn the volume up it just sounds like the same poor quality but louder.


    So we are open to suggestions as to what we are doing wrong. Has to be a schoolboy error on our part. Any help is much appreciated

    are you getting enough level into the Kemper to drive whatever profile you’re using ?


    My first suggestion would be to come out of the Scarlett analogue and into the regular input of the KPA and then back into a mic pre input on the Scarlett; and try that.


    I don’t get the attraction to using spdif if you have enough analogue ins and outs.

    Yes the raw was recorded via spdif using Git/Stck setting using another profile.


    We know level going into Kmper is fine as it sounds superb vis the kemper headphones.


    When we listen to samplrs via the rig manager we get the same issue.
    Great on kemper headphones.
    Terrible via SPDIF to Focusrite headphones.

    If you reamp in the analog domain, does it solve your problem? If so, why not just go that route?


    My guess would be some sort of jitter or digital inconsistency (clocking, cabling, sample rate, something along those lines). You have to make sure that your interface is set up to receive the audio clock FROM the Kemper SPDIF output. It's weird, but that's how it works. I've been using SPDIF in both directions just fine with an Avid mBox 3 Pro. You also need to set the SPDIF sample rate on the Kemper to match your session (Output menu, pg 5). Sorry if these things are obvious to you....just thinking it through.

    Good singer by the way...


    well I'd say you focus so much on the SPDIF output that you forget to consider the audio interface
    adjustment as the problem


    Btw I never recorded the SPDIF output of any devices in my life and without giving you my CV I made some gold records here and there. My point is that is it really necessary to record SPDIF of anything with such a great signer? And good songs too


    I dont think so...

    I appreciate we could go down another route and re-amp via analog.


    But so may people have successfully gone down the SPDIF route and got great results. (I've read loads of posts where it has been successful)


    So why can't we. If we try all options and we conclude SPDIF is duff on our Kemper then we can go down that route. (We've ordered some new cables just in case)


    It's not the headphones via the focusrite as the recorded guitar is also poor quality.


    Like I said we've checked all obvious things like clock settings etc (the guide on this forum is terrific) - we'll double check again though.


    The SPDIF (Output) volume simple makes a poor tone louder.


    ps The singer records remotely and sends us the wav files which we add to cubase.
    SPDIF is simply to re-amp the guitar and bass.


    The sound we want is there via the Kemper headphones.
    If we can get that we are a very happy band and I'm sure the track above will CRUSH.
    It's the fact it's SO out when it reaches Cubase that we think we've made a massive schoolboy error.


    We'll see if we can record an analog snippet to compare to the SPDIF snippet from the kemper.

    Have you got the S/PDIF out configured to send your "full" stereo signal from the Kemper, if indeed that's what you're hearing from its headphone socket? IOW, are you sure you're not comparing apples with oranges and that the S/PDIF out is matched to the headphone output channel-wise?


    Also, check that you're not comparing a Headphone-space output (set on the Kemper, most-likely for the headphone amp) with a non-HS one.

    Quote from adywhittell

    ps The singer records remotely and sends us the wav files which we add to cubase.
    SPDIF is simply to re-amp the guitar and bass.


    The sound we want is there via the Kemper headphones.
    If we can get that we are a very happy band and I'm sure the track above will CRUSH.

    As long as you don't forget what sells the songs. And in my humble opinion, it's your singer, a very good powerful one as yours. So if you crush the guitars and works on the guitar and the bass and focus on that , I suggest be careful not to bury the singer voice, behind boosted frequencies... And spend as much time to make him shine coz he deserve it (my two cents)


    PS: I knew an engineer who spent so much time time on the drum he was f... obsessed with BD and SNare. He could spend a whole afternoon , 5 hours in a row working on the BD and the snare and spend 10 minutes on the singer's voice. hey guys THE VOICE is the most important track... Look at all the albums you got , and ask yourself why you like those songs so much ... its the singer first, generally...

    Quote from adywhittell

    When recording we use Git/Stack. (You can hear it has a combination of distorted and raw guitar)
    But just listening we use Stack.

    I hope you don't take this the wrong way but you mentioned that you assume it is a massive schoolboy error so.........


    Is it possible you are reamping the stack signal rather than the Git signal. which would simply be a routing error in Cubase. Easily checked by bypassing the whole Stack section of the KP while reamping to make sure you are indeed receiving the true D.I. Git signal.

    hehe We'll don't care how stupid the issue is or how ridiculous it makes us look if we've got something horribly wrong.


    We've actally got 2 album's worth of material recorded now so fairly confident with Cubase/Kemper/Re-Amping etc
    We always though the sound was Ok but not 1500 quid's worth of ok.
    We only recently listened via Kemper headphone socket and thought 'WOW! THAT is the sound we want'
    No we're definitely re-amping the raw guitar signal.


    I've just listened again. The sound coming directly from Kemper using the Kemper Headphone socket is just godly.


    Are they ramping the sound up to sound so sweet on the headphones. Somehow 'fluffing up' the sound (even with space turned right down).
    I don't actually believe my own words as I've heard that sweet Kemper sound on many re-amp vids (using SPDIF)


    Tonight we are going to record some SPDIF input and some Analog Input from Kemper and compare.

    Oh and GForce guitar, the singer is John Knight from Prog Metal Synaptik (You can hear him on Spotify).


    He loves his metal and it was he that prompted us to get a better tone as he said the guitar tone was lacking something and wasn't 'crushing enough'.


    We had it 'appearing to crush' but all we'd done is massively boost the lodness of the track with an L2 maximiser which made it sound heavy but killed the overall dynamics etc.

    Quote from adywhittell


    No we're definitely re-amping the raw guitar signal.

    I assumed that would be the case but you never know ;)



    Quote from adywhittell

    I've just listened again. The sound coming directly from Kemper using the Kemper Headphone socket is just godly.


    Are they ramping the sound up to sound so sweet on the headphones. Somehow 'fluffing up' the sound (even with space turned right down).

    No there shouldn't be anything magical happening on the headphone out - no "fluffing up".


    That would suggest that either:


    • the SPDIF output isn't set to send the right signal back to Cubase eg you are hearing Master Stereo on headphones but Master Mono or Master Left when reamping via SPDIF. (probably unlikely given your experience)
    • the reamp input sens isn't set properly
    • SPDIF volume in the output menu is too high or too low. Most likely too high and clipping something
    • there is an issue with the interface or its settings
    • there is a plugin accidentally active in Cubase
    • the monitors don't sound as good as your headphones
    • the room doesn't sound great and this is hidden using heaphones.

    I think what I am trying to get at is I am clutching at straws but there are a lot of variables that could contribute so its going to be a case of systematic trouble shooting to rule out potential culprits one by one. All of these suggestions are potential issues but with two albums worth of recording time I wouldn't expect many of them to be the cause in your case - ie if the monitors aren't sounding great it would affect everything and you would know by now :)

    Quote from adywhittell

    When we listen to samplrs via the rig manager we get the same issue.
    Great on kemper headphones.
    Terrible via SPDIF to Focusrite headphones.

    There was a previous thread about the headphone out on the Kemper. The conclusion seemed to be that it is a good headphone amp. I can't remember what interface headphone out it was being compared to but the issue seemed to be a weakness in the interface headphone amp. Are you saying that the SPDIF signal sounds bad through Focusrite headphones AND through studio monitors or only headphones?

    Well this post confirms me that I'll never use the SPDIF output


    Fortunately (for me) it is not an absolute necessity to record with it, you can survive without this output...


    I don' t even re-amp , I prefer to record the guitar again with a better sound


    But hey it's a free world right? We all works differently with different goals.


    Goodluck


    8)8)8) G Force Intermediate

    We just compared the Analogue signal with the SPDIF one and they are identical. (BOTH not as good as via the Kemper headphones)


    So on the monitors/headphones the signal just seems sub standard to the sound via the Kemper headphone socket (routed via the focusrite).


    And it's obviously not cables because of the above test.


    And further to this when we do the actual re-amping itself it still sounds better when we listen on the Kemper.


    We'll try a few of the suggestions from Wheresthedug reamp sens, SPDIFvolme etc and see if that makes a difference.
    With regards the tracks we record 2 guitar tracks and pan left and right (both the from the right SPDIF channel - we also record the raw SPDIF signal just purely for re-amping).
    We tried quad tracking guitars but it got a bit muddy. (maybe playing wasn't tight enough :) )


    Seems really simple doesn't it. Record EXACTLY the 'non fluffed up' sound we are hearing via the Kemper headphones :)

    Quote from adywhittell

    We just compared the Analogue signal with the SPDIF one and they are identical. (BOTH not as good as via the Kemper headphones)

    I never tried to record a headphone output with a special wire...
    Headphone out ---special wire---to preamp
    But why not...
    Maybe you'll realise that its the proximity of headphones on your head that create that extra touch you try to find on speakers
    Good luck